New Goodyear Speedway 350 Tires? Small Letter

I think I need to clarify things on the small letter tire start date issue. Dave Mathews shared a 1967 document with me yesterday that talks about only using the large letter Speedway for a short two month period in 1966. It was mentioned in a earlier post but I discounted it as second hand information .As current SAAC 67 Shelby Head concours judge I had not received the info diectly from Dave . The Memo indicates using the large letter tires on only approximately the first 230 cars.Dave probably thought I already had the info. As I told Dave it is the proverbial smoking gun. I certainly am glad to have some hard provenience to back up a piece of info that is sure to upset a lot of people. I know speaking for myself I had always suspected the small letter tires being used on some under 1000 numbered cars but never would have guessed I would see a small letter on a 240 something car. The first 230 cars I now would have to say in judging we would have to give a plus or minus a dozen cars or so and draw a line in the sand on the use of the large letter tires and small letter tire. Sorry to the poster for not putting more faith into what you had to say. I am always learning something new about the production build of the 65 -70 Shelby Mustangs and since the point of the concours original aspect of the cars is the truth about how they are built this comes as welcome info. With availability of a superior reproduction part which in this case is the small letter tires in reproduction, a div II car will be required to have the appropriate repro Speedway tire for the VIN of the car. Div I it goes without saying. Thanks again Dave for bringing this to my attention and your dedicated work with the records. I think we are all on the same page with this issue now.

 

Frank , this forum is about sharing and since I haven't seen you sharing here before I have to assume you are new . First off welcome second we are all friends here . You should come to the National convention in NJ in Aug or closer to you the Mid America Show in June and see for yourself how the judging works . The Ford assemblyline manuals show which engines received the caution fan stickers .Thank you for sharing that information it also has been discussed before on this forum. As you indicated some cars were supposed to receive them and some didn't . The Ford assemblyline manuals that have been reproduced from copies of the originals are the provenience for that. If you don't have some you should pick up a set I am sure you will find something in the hundreds of pages informing even at 66. I know I learn something about these cars almost everyday. I have the envelope and sticker that Ford mailed a family member who bought a 69 Shelby new in FORDS letter campaign to get the stickers retro fitted on Fan shrouds. There is a lot of misinformation out there as well as missing information. A brave few (many of which partipate on this forum)put themselves out there to try and help make sense out of all of this. The point is to try and help other enthusiasts. Sometimes in the pursuit of this effort we make mistakes. I don't know anyone that doesn't . It sounds like you have a lot to offer. I look forward to your productive involvement.

 

I am still unclear about what has attempted to be determined here about the Speedway tires?

Kenny

P.S. I have original 67 dated photos taken in the back of the LAX facility, which clearly shows car #490 with large letter Speedways?
These are photos even SAAC doesn't have.

 

Kenny,
Everything concerning the 1967 Shelby Mustangs is determined by date, not Shelby Vin. The first important date is the assembly plant date. This effects the Ford components and anything the assembly workers attach to the chassis. The second important date is the Shelby manufacturing date which effects the Shelby components installed by Shelby's workers. The Ford Vins. are in order. The Shelby Vins. are NOT. You mentioned car #490. Car#490 actually has a lower Ford Vin. then say car #194, so in the case of bolted on components, including tires, car #490 would have earlier items. The same goes for date codes.
I hope this clears up your confusion.
Dave

 

You know Bob, I have been here for quite a while. [on this site] I try to help when I can, but I will try not to make statements of fact unless I know them to be a fact. Doing so can cause TOO much trouble. He says, she says, they know more, I am more important and the list goes on. As I said, I have been around these cars since they were new. The 1967 Shelby is my most favorite, but it is also the least understood and most controversial one there is. Even more so than the 69 Boss 429. I think it would be impossible to say when any one thing was changed unless there is a document to prove it. Example---Most people think that the C7ZX intake was a 67 GT 500 item only. It was first used on the 67 427 R code Fairlanes and Comets. The first 67 GT 500's also used the same air cleaner lids as those cars minus the birds.
I know for a fact that there is NO cut off date for the lower brake scoops. I have had cars with lower[under 1000] without and cars over [2000] with. There was obviously no pattern to what was done. By the way, I own the lowest mile 67 GT 500 known to exist[4600 miles] and now own two others and have owned quite a few over the years and worked on other peoples cars, but that doesn't make me an expert. I see that Kenny said that he has a picture of a car[I believe #400] with the large letters. That proves that the tires were used throughout production[sporadically] and even into the 68 production in Michigan, Yeah, right!!!!! That is exactly what I am talking about. Be helpful, but be SURE. Being judges don't make you always right, so try to be careful of what you swear to.



1967 GT 500 --- 4600 original miles Dealer installed 427 tunnel port

 

Frank,

After reading the whole thread, i must say that Bob was merely trying to help and contribute his knowledge to the thread. Maybe you could play nice and at least express you opinions in a more respectfull manner as we are all equals here. Air Cleaner types have nothing to do with tires and niether do caution fan decals.
Bob has readily admitted that he is sometimes wrong, although rarely, along with any other person in this hobby...so what is there to argue about?
We know that you are 66 and that you have been around the cars for a long time but why do you feel like you must, for lack of better word, antagonize those who are merely putting in their best efforts for the service of others on this site. That is not what this site is about....
Lets just try to play nice in this thread.

Best Regards,
Vern

 

Dave ... just to continue to the discussion ..and only a little point. Do we know that the Ford VIN's were in order?

None of the plants typically assembled cars in sequential orders and from my understanding other cars were being assembled in line with the Shelby order. Producing (for example) a complete group of GT500's with AC in a group goes againist what people at the San Jose have suggested and what plant managers at other plants describe as normal practice.

But bottom line though I do agree ( as mentioned elsewhere) Ford VINs for details related to what was done at Ford. Just focusing on a little detail


Merry Christmas everyone

 

I am selling an original E-70 Polyglass spare on the correct wheel for a 68/KR.

Not cheap

 

For those that do not know the players involved in this discussion, Frank is a Boss 429 Owner/Guru 67 Shelby GT500 Multiple Owner/ Mad enthusiast and very knowledgeable. also very personable an can work that phone line!! Bob Gaines and Kenny Beers are both knowledgeable and experienced SAAC judges and Both share the "Splitting Hairs" Enthusiasm and desire to learn something new about 41 year old cars!! The same goes for Jeff Speegle. "GT350DAVE", is not only the 1967 SHELBY REGISTRAR for 25 years now of Dedicated Volunteering, but a True Historian of these Cars. I am proud to Call him my Friend. So truth be told, some of the Worlds Greatest 1967 SHELBY Experts have basicly just had a very productive and Entertaining discussion. Truth be told, You all just witnessed a very REAL "SAAC" Experience! Myself and those I mentioned are all Members of SAAC. so for the uninformed, this is part of the reason why SAAC is ESSENTIAL to the Hobby. Thanks also to VERN who has picked up a dropped ball on this site and been running with it ever since. Vern is a model Forum guy with as much passion to learn as everybody else on this thread. and with that, "MERRY CHRISTMAS" One and ALL!!

 

I second that.
Best Regards,
Vern

 

67 is not the year I specialize in but I noticed all the hype about what size letters on Goodyear tires was correct and if anyone has documents to authenticate the claim. I found a early photo of what I believe is original 67 Post card with no lettering at all. I don't believe I heard anyone mention this as a option in this blog. Whats your opinion on this.

 

You know VERN, I guess you missed this part of the thread.

That just rubbed me the wrong way. Some more of "I am more important than you"
I read most of the posts and frequent the forum almost daily. As I said, I try to help when I can but try to be sure of what I say so somebody doesn't make a mistake that could cost them a lot of money or time. My point of the fan decal, intake, air cleaner and others were just what they implied. There have been discussions about them with the wrong conclusions as far as I am concerned. And like you and Bob, I feel like I am entitled to my opinion. If you have a problem with something I say, you can contact me directly and we can try and work it out. If you haven't paid attention, I am not one of those anonymous people on a forum. You can contact me at

boss9@alltel.net

Frank Bowers

 

This promotional photo was taken in 1966. This car is a very special and well documented prototype that belongs to Lowell Otter. There are a series of promotional photos of this car all taken prior to the production cars being produced. A lot of the components used on the production cars were not available at that time and some of the other photos show a number of 1966 parts.
Dave

 

Frank, I honestly didn't recognize your post name. My comment wasn't intended to be a insult to you . I am sorry you took it that way. I look forward to interacting with you in a friendly way from here on out. Merry Christmas and a safe Holiday Season to you Frank and all on the forums. Bob G.

 

Same Car Different Ad ????

 

Thanks Bob and the same to you and yours. Sorry about getting cranky!!!!!!!!!
Frank

 

Jeff,
The car's DSO numbers tell us that there were 16 different variations of a 1967 Shelby. The Shelby cars were built as knock downs in batches so the orders were grouped. They attempted to do this because they were odd balls and not constructed in a normal fashion. I wasn't there on the assembly line so I can not answer for sure whether they were built in exact sequence but it is obvious by looking at the DSO's, Ford Vins and production dates that the cars were grouped, resulting in them being built close together. Once again, I wasn't there so I can't tell if it is hours or a few days apart but the data shows they were very close.
I learned along time ago that the 1967 Shelby cars had a lot of exceptions to the rule. This is one of the things that confuses owners and judges when they see something that they can't explain. Some car's have been judged as being incorrect because they had components on them that did not match what the judges were used to seeing for a given Shelby Vin., so the owner is told the car is wrong, when actually something happened to the car between the assembly plant and when Shelby actually finished the car.
Example: In the case of a very early car without a 2 piece grill, without a 4 point roll bar, functional side scoops, flat taillight panel or early steering wheel. What happened to the car was it was delayed between the assembly plant and when Shelby assembly workers actually worked on the car. Knowone looked in the Registry so the owner was told by an expert that the car was wrong. Back to my date statement: Had they looked in the Registry, they would have seen that this particular very early car got pushed aside for 6 months before it was worked on.
My point is that we can not judge a car by the Shelby Vin. alone. The Shelby Vins. in certain cases are off and the judges in some instances are not realizing that the manufacturing dates at the assembly plant and at Shelby American are extremely important for determining correctness.
I am sure Kenny's resistance to except some of the things I say is because he believes in the sequence of the Shelby Vins. I have read it in his posts. In his defense, that is what I used to believe 20 years ago. It isn't that simple.
Dave

 

I talked to John Kelsey a few weeks ago as he returned to me one of my 5original small letter speedway 350 tires. He used one my original tires to help him develop his new 2008 small letter offering.You can look forward to him offering the new small letter tires after the first of the year.Hey Snakebite lets start adding small letter tires to the list of when and where on the exceptional items on 67 cars
3206 had small letters
Merry Christmas Guys!
Jim Hull

 

After reading the good point Dave brought up about Ford production dates VS. Shelby build. The Ford build VS. Shelby build has been discussed by others on this forum before. Speaking for myself this concept has finally sunk in so that now I think my earlier statement should be amended to include a look into the build date of a car being judged if it had large letter Speedways and also had a later Shelby VIN. Since the tires were installed at the Ford plant comparing the Ford build date would help cover the inconsistant manner in which KD cars were brought into the factory to become Shelby cars in no sequential order. Just to put this in context this is one more thing that has to be done during the maybe 45 to 60 minutes judges have to try and survey completly and correctly a concours entered car that has Thousands of parts.

 

Frank, all i am saying is that we are all friends here.
I really dont have anything to say to you personally, but if you have something to say to me than feel free at vernon_estes@yahoo.com.

As for hiding behind a screen name, i am very involved with many people on this forum and dont feel like i have anything to hide.

I have no problem with you it is just that you came off a little forward in your posts as if you were trying to antagonize.

I also look forward to interacting with you on the forums.

I dont want to hijack this thread into some sort of unwanted personal arguement so merry christmas.

BEst Regards,
Vern