The people inside Ford can get "loony" from time to time. (Carroll Shelby found that out 37 years ago, didn't he?)The people inside Ford are always changing positions, leaving, or new ones are coming in. When people change then many times so do their policies. With the cash crunch and downsizing Ford been going through for the past 3-5 years the moral inside Ford is at an all-time low or so I have heard. In my opinion they have moved too many assholes up the corporate ranks. There are a lot of very good car people and enthusiasts inside the company, but I think they are in the minority. In my opinion, the management attitude inside Ford quite frequently gets very negative to both their insiders and to outsiders alike. Some time ago their trademark group and their Office of General consul (OGC) come out some blanket dictate that "they" have to protect their Ford trademarked names, so they go after anyone and every one with no thought behind it. This has been going on for a long time and some of it is quite silly. One case in point from a few years ago was the website called FordDiesel.com. This website was a very nice website that did nothing but concentrate on any and all Ford North American Trucks and Vans that were powered by the Ford (Navistar) diesel engines. It was a very helpful website to all Ford diesel owners and not negative to Ford at all. Ford got the bug up their ass that anyone using the name Ford as part of their website name was against Ford Company Policy and they went after everybody as a blanket dictate and it didn't matter if the website was positive or negative to Ford. Ford is a large company and is not afraid to throw its weight around. It didn't matter whether they had a legal right to use the website name FordDiesel.com when Ford wants to have things their way. Rather than fight big brother Ford and go toe to toe with their staff of lawyers and deep pockets it was cheaper to just change their website name to something else. Their website name is now TheDieselStop.com. Check out their website. They have some very nice forums of people helping people. Now that Shelby and Ford are hooking up again in a big way I think that Ford is dog and Shelby Enterprises is the tail on this trademark protection thing. I'm guessing that during their most recent marriage here some Ford higher -ups (Middle Management Drones) asked Shelby Enterprises management about all these Clones, Clowns, Replicars, and GT500E (Unique Performance) and what is S-E doing about all this to protect the Shelby trademark? I don't think S-E really knows where they really want to go with all of this. If they do know I don't think they have made this clear to the Mustang/Shelby vendors out there yet. As far as the Mustangs Plus vs. Ford debate goes I'm on the side of Mustangs Plus. They have been in business a long time and Ford has known about them for a long time. In my opinion, if Ford didn't object to their company name right away and has let them use it for quite a while then Mustangs Plus should have the legal right to continue using the name. I think that if Mustangs Plus fights Ford on this and gets the issue out in the press then Ford may come to their senses and back down before going to court. Unfortunately Mustangs Plus will have to prepare do battle with Ford in the mean time.. Jim Seisser ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Jim: Very well said, as usual. I'm with you on the Mustangs Plus issue, but it will cost BIG bucks to fight Ford. Ford are in such debt right now, that another million or two won't really matter to them. It will probably cost Mustangs Plus in the millions to defend the issue and Ford, with its legal team can drag this issue out until MP bleeds blue. That's why I wondered out loud if a class action suit against Ford should not be explored. If a class action suit were deemed feasible and some good advertising was done to make the case known across the US and Canada, we could attract many, I am sure, concerned owners. If each of us enthusiasts put in $10.00 or $20.00, maybe David can beat Goliath one more time. Some food for thought. Ron ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
thinkin out loud here ... If you and your girlfriend are together 7 years arn't you considered married ?? that should be the same with Ford .. These guy's have had the name forever ....ok ok ok I know there is also NO "forever" back under my rock Dan ecj <ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com> wrote: The people inside Ford can get "loony" from time to time. (Carroll Shelby found that out 37 years ago, didn't he?)The people inside Ford are always changing positions, leaving, or new ones are coming in. When people change then many times so do their policies. With the cash crunch and downsizing Ford been going through for the past 3-5 years the moral inside Ford is at an all-time low or so I have heard. In my opinion they have moved too many assholes up the corporate ranks. There are a lot of very good car people and enthusiasts inside the company, but I think they are in the minority. In my opinion, the management attitude inside Ford quite frequently gets very negative to both their insiders and to outsiders alike. Some time ago their trademark group and their Office of General consul (OGC) come out some blanket dictate that "they" have to protect their Ford trademarked names, so they go after anyone and every one with no thought behind it. This has been going on for a long time and some of it is quite silly. One case in point from a few years ago was the website called FordDiesel.com. This website was a very nice website that did nothing but concentrate on any and all Ford North American Trucks and Vans that were powered by the Ford (Navistar) diesel engines. It was a very helpful website to all Ford diesel owners and not negative to Ford at all. Ford got the bug up their ass that anyone using the name Ford as part of their website name was against Ford Company Policy and they went after everybody as a blanket dictate and it didn't matter if the website was positive or negative to Ford. Ford is a large company and is not afraid to throw its weight around. It didn't matter whether they had a legal right to use the website name FordDiesel.com when Ford wants to have things their way. Rather than fight big brother Ford and go toe to toe with their staff of lawyers and deep pockets it was cheaper to just change their website name to something else. Their website name is now TheDieselStop.com. Check out their website. They have some very nice forums of people helping people. Now that Shelby and Ford are hooking up again in a big way I think that Ford is dog and Shelby Enterprises is the tail on this trademark protection thing. I'm guessing that during their most recent marriage here some Ford higher -ups (Middle Management Drones) asked Shelby Enterprises management about all these Clones, Clowns, Replicars, and GT500E (Unique Performance) and what is S-E doing about all this to protect the Shelby trademark? I don't think S-E really knows where they really want to go with all of this. If they do know I don't think they have made this clear to the Mustang/Shelby vendors out there yet. As far as the Mustangs Plus vs. Ford debate goes I'm on the side of Mustangs Plus. They have been in business a long time and Ford has known about them for a long time. In my opinion, if Ford didn't object to their company name right away and has let them use it for quite a while then Mustangs Plus should have the legal right to continue using the name. I think that if Mustangs Plus fights Ford on this and gets the issue out in the press then Ford may come to their senses and back down before going to court. Unfortunately Mustangs Plus will have to prepare do battle with Ford in the mean time. Jim Seisser ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --------------------------------- New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
I am hearing some stuff that I did not know was going on. A while back I was owner of a mustang shop when ford decided to 'protect' its name. I was sent a letter by ford asking me to disclose some information about the business and how long it had been there.....bla bla bla. it was my understanding that for the exchange of information I would be granted the right to use the work 'mustang' in the company name and ford was not asking for any money. I complied at the time and never thought about it. I sold the shop about 12 or so years ago so I have not really kept up with what was going on from there. I really believe that all this after the fact stuff is just nuts. At some point if someone is using the name and they are big enough to be on the radar and you have not done something about it, then they should have the right to use the name as long as they are bringing no harm. In the 80s there was a letter writing campaign that stopped the Probe from becoming the mustang. That may be all there is to do about this to let ford know we are not happy. Frankly I just do not understand, I always thought that if someone is making a club for your product or if you product becomes a 'hobby' then that was a good thing. Kind of free advertising for you, I guess that is not good enough anymore. I always thought if ford was really smart they would create the vintage ford division who would have access to all the old ford prints and tooling. they could make replacement parts on a smaller scale with a lower overhead and essentially make the money that is otherwise being made by the people doing the repo stuff. if they did this and sold stuff in the cost range of the repo stuff then they would essentially hold the market for the parts and be making the money while we are essentially getting 'ford parts' missed opportunity bob
Bob: A letter writing campaign is a good idea, but how do we get the word spread out so ALL Ford owners hear it? You are well connected in the Mustang hobby and yet you are surprised by the things you have never heard about the current Ford campaign. There are probably millions more who aren't aware of this program. How do we let them know? Donald Farr's editorial in the June issue of Mustang Monthly is a start but what then? We got some very smart people on this chat line. Let's hear from them on how to go about this. While it does not apply directly, Winston Churchill had a great saying; "For evil to triumph requires only that good people do nothing." Let's get mobilized. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: RSANTER (AT) aol (DOT) com To: ronald.robertson (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca ; ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com ; shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 10:40 PM Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks I am hearing some stuff that I did not know was going on. A while back I was owner of a mustang shop when ford decided to 'protect' its name. I was sent a letter by ford asking me to disclose some information about the business and how long it had been there.....bla bla bla. it was my understanding that for the exchange of information I would be granted the right to use the work 'mustang' in the company name and ford was not asking for any money. I complied at the time and never thought about it. I sold the shop about 12 or so years ago so I have not really kept up with what was going on from there. I really believe that all this after the fact stuff is just nuts. At some point if someone is using the name and they are big enough to be on the radar and you have not done something about it, then they should have the right to use the name as long as they are bringing no harm. In the 80s there was a letter writing campaign that stopped the Probe from becoming the mustang. That may be all there is to do about this to let ford know we are not happy. Frankly I just do not understand, I always thought that if someone is making a club for your product or if you product becomes a 'hobby' then that was a good thing. Kind of free advertising for you, I guess that is not good enough anymore. I always thought if ford was really smart they would create the vintage ford division who would have access to all the old ford prints and tooling. they could make replacement parts on a smaller scale with a lower overhead and essentially make the money that is otherwise being made by the people doing the repo stuff. if they did this and sold stuff in the cost range of the repo stuff then they would essentially hold the market for the parts and be making the money while we are essentially getting 'ford parts' missed opportunity bob
Ron Actually I do not feel well connected and I must say I really do not pay attention to things the way I used to. Having had a shop (mustang shop and a body shop) really burned me out (employee troubles) so I sold out and went into hiding...... this board and some of the 'friends' I gained are really the people I keep in touch with as I feel I have found my nitch with a great bunch of guys that have the right attitude and outlook on things as well as share a common passion for these cars. but Ron I must thank you for the complement that I actually might be in touch with whats going on... I think we would start by a email campaign to the magazines and ford. We can rally the troops by emailing the mustang clubs that are on the web and ask them to join the email assault. if ford and Shelby are out of touch then we need to gram the chain and yank to get their attention bob
Back in the late 80s I had a conversation with a ford executive/managers (lower level) when I was at one of the bigger shows that they were displaying their new cars at. I forget what I said or asked, bit he essentially told me that the old cars do not matter they are already sold and have no benefit to ford any longer. if we remember that is when ford was out of touch and was going to give us a front wheel drive mustang(probe). well I guess the got the message because when it came time for the design of what became the 94, the mustang club I was in was part of the focus group that gave feedback to the design direction of the then new car. it seems ford has fallen out of touch again but in a different area. they need to understand their relation to this with the sales of ALL of their cars and not just the mustang bob
Bob, There is still much truth to what that Ford person said years ago. Old Fords don't make Ford money now. If Ford doesn't make money now then they don't stay in business, pure and simple. Or at least that's the way they see it at Ford. I remember back in the early 1980s when people either drove their Shelbys to the SAAC national convention or their trailers were pulled by a Ford vehicle. It is not that way today, nor has it been that way in a long time. You see a lot of non-Ford vehicles as tow vehicles these days. If Ford can't translate the success of their marketing dollars into Ford new vehicle sales then they don't give much support to that activity. Ford can directly figure out the bang for their buck for the money they spend on NASCAR. They spend a lot of money on NASCAR and they measure the results. They know they get good results for the money they spend on NASCAR racing therefore they will continue spending their dollars there. Unfortunately Ford doesn’t measure other areas as well as they do NASCAR. If organizations like the MCA would do a survey to show that their members are enthusiasts of Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products and that they not only play with vintage stuff, but that their everyday vehicles are Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln vehicles, then Mustang enthusiasts and their clubs would have a bigger voice inside of Ford. I guess you could argue that Ford just takes our support for granted. Ford has studied who Mustang buyers are. But I am not aware that Ford marketing has really even studied the relationship of the Mustang enthusiasts vs. what other vehicles they own. Yes, Ford takes new designs (all models) to focus clinics all the time as do other companies. Ford did this for the 1994 Mustang redesign, the 1999 redesign and the 2005 redesign. Why do they have to do this? It is because there are too many levels of management inside a large company like Ford and there are too many people inside of Ford who don't know how to style/design up the right thing for the market. As a whole, they need direction that ugly designs are ugly.. Gearhead product development engineers know an ugly Mustang design when they see it. But a gearhead engineer's job is not to clay up the designs, nor is it to point out what is ugly to the marketing and design people. The engineer's job is to take what they are given and make it a reality, make sure it all fits together and that it will last in the real world and survive customer neglect and abuse. There are a lot of good people (engineers and non-engineers) inside of Ford that know a good thing when they see it. But there are too many that don't have vision. There are too many bean counters, non-enthusiasts, and short-sighted middle management people at Ford that are more worried about last month's sales numbers, short term goals and their careers up the corporate ladder (or lack there of), then there are people who have a long term interest and proper vision in the company as a whole. I love the new Mustang and many of the current Ford products. I feel for the enthusiasts inside of Ford Motor Company, but I don't have empathy for a company that created the corporate culture that breeds the management they now have. One could argue that market dynamics are such that Ford can never really be fully in touch with all the consumers for any long period of time. I have my doubts that the company will understand the true Ford enthusiast and their relation to all Ford cars and trucks. In my opinion Ford is more concerned with new product, new customers, and market share than they are concerned with enthusiasts. Ford is more concerned with people who buy a new Ford every couple of years rather than someone who drives a Ford everyday but buys new every 7-12 years. Since we, the Ford enthusiast, are not understood and since we don't have a strong or united voice, it will be difficult to get our point across to Ford that they are doing something stupid when they are not even listening. Of course that doesn’t mean we shouldn't try. If we complain long enough they might get the idea. Then again they might get the idea when we stop complaining and get sour on Ford products and their market share continues to drop. Jim Seisser -----Original Message----- From: RSANTER (AT) aol (DOT) com Sent: May 15, 2006 4:14 PM To: epalmer (AT) harris (DOT) com, ronald.robertson (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca, ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com, shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Back in the late 80s I had a conversation with a ford executive/managers (lower level) when I was at one of the bigger shows that they were displaying their new cars at. I forget what I said or asked, bit he essentially told me that the old cars do not matter they are already sold and have no benefit to ford any longer. if we remember that is when ford was out of touch and was going to give us a front wheel drive mustang(probe). well I guess the got the message because when it came time for the design of what became the 94, the mustang club I was in was part of the focus group that gave feedback to the design direction of the then new car. it seems ford has fallen out of touch again but in a different area. they need to understand their relation to this with the sales of ALL of their cars and not just the mustang bob ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Jim: I find it interesting that you said "I remember back in the early 1980s when people either drove their Shelbys to the SAAC national convention or their trailers were pulled by a Ford vehicle." since I just bought me a new 06 Crew Cab Chevy Silverado Duallie and yes the thought about towing a Shelby with a Chevy made me feel weird but then again...I could not resist the new Duramax 6.6 (360 hp) with 6 speed auto Allison tranny. I think it beats the King Ranch Fords from a mechanical standpoint. jon - - - - Bob, - - There is still much truth to what that Ford person said years ago. Old Fords don't make Ford money now. If Ford doesn't make money now then they don't stay in business, pure and simple. Or at least - that's the way they see it at Ford. - - I remember back in the early 1980s when people either drove their Shelbys to the SAAC national convention or their trailers were pulled by a Ford vehicle. It is not that way today, nor has it been - that way in a long time. You see a lot of non-Ford vehicles as tow vehicles these days. - - If Ford can't translate the success of their marketing dollars into Ford new vehicle sales then they don't give much support to that activity. Ford can directly figure out the bang for their buck - for the money they spend on NASCAR. They spend a lot of money on NASCAR and they measure the results. They know they get good results for the money they spend on NASCAR racing therefore they will - continue spending their dollars there. Unfortunately Ford doesn’t measure other areas as well as they do NASCAR. - - If organizations like the MCA would do a survey to show that their members are enthusiasts of Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products and that they not only play with vintage stuff, but that their - everyday vehicles are Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln vehicles, then Mustang enthusiasts and their clubs would have a bigger voice inside of Ford. I guess you could argue that Ford just takes our - support for granted. Ford has studied who Mustang buyers are. But I am not aware that Ford marketing has really even studied the relationship of the Mustang enthusiasts vs. what other vehicles they - own. - - Yes, Ford takes new designs (all models) to focus clinics all the time as do other companies. Ford did this for the 1994 Mustang redesign, the 1999 redesign and the 2005 redesign. Why do they have - to do this? It is because there are too many levels of management inside a large company like Ford and there are too many people inside of Ford who don't know how to style/design up the right thing - for the market. As a whole, they need direction that ugly designs are ugly. Gearhead product development engineers know an ugly Mustang design when they see it. But a gearhead engineer's job is not - to clay up the designs, nor is it to point out what is ugly to the marketing and design people. The engineer's job is to take what they are given and make it a reality, make sure it all fits - together and that it will last in the real world and survive customer neglect and abuse. There are a lot of good people (engineers and non-engineers) inside of Ford that know a good thing when they - see it. But there are too many that don't have vision. There are too many bean counters, non-enthusiasts, and short-sighted middle management people at Ford that are more worried about last month's - sales numbers, short term goals and their careers up the corporate ladder (or lack there of), then there are people who have a long term interest and proper vision in the company as a whole. I love - the new Mustang and many of the current Ford products. I feel for the enthusiasts inside of Ford Motor Company, but I don't have empathy for a company that created the corporate culture that breeds - the management they now have. - - One could argue that market dynamics are such that Ford can never really be fully in touch with all the consumers for any long period of time. I have my doubts that the company will understand the - true Ford enthusiast and their relation to all Ford cars and trucks. In my opinion Ford is more concerned with new product, new customers, and market share than they are concerned with enthusiasts. - Ford is more concerned with people who buy a new Ford every couple of years rather than someone who drives a Ford everyday but buys new every 7-12 years. - - Since we, the Ford enthusiast, are not understood and since we don't have a strong or united voice, it will be difficult to get our point across to Ford that they are doing something stupid when - they are not even listening. Of course that doesn’t mean we shouldn't try. If we complain long enough they might get the idea. Then again they might get the idea when we stop complaining and get - sour on Ford products and their market share continues to drop. - Jim Seisser - - - - - -----Original Message----- - From: RSANTER (AT) aol (DOT) com - Sent: May 15, 2006 4:14 PM - To: epalmer (AT) harris (DOT) com, ronald.robertson (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca, ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com, shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com - Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks - - - Back in the late 80s I had a conversation with a ford executive/managers (lower level) when I was at one of the bigger shows that they were displaying their new cars at. I forget what I said or - asked, bit he essentially told me that the old cars do not matter they are already sold and have no benefit to ford any longer. if we remember that is when ford was out of touch and was going to - give us a front wheel drive mustang(probe). well I guess the got the message because when it came time for the design of what became the 94, the mustang club I was in was part of the focus group - that gave feedback to the design direction of the then new car. - it seems ford has fallen out of touch again but in a different area. they need to understand their relation to this with the sales of ALL of their cars and not just the mustang - - bob - - ________________________________________ - PeoplePC Online - A better way to Internet - http://www.peoplepc.com - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
while I am a fan of the vintage metal I have had a range of product over the years that were used as daily transportation extended cab PU expedition 89GT mustang ford van town car so while I do not believe I have made ford rich over the years, I can say they have gotten some money from me. however there is a larger issue to look at as well. every old mustang out there is like a political endorsement sign on someone's lawn (especially now that the retro thing is so hot). I am not saying that they should be paying us or funding our hobby, however they should not be abusing us either. in short give us some common courtesy or there is the possibility that you will loose the next sale to us bob
Jim Oh my gawd!!! Im not even going to go there!!! jon Quoting ecj <ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com>: - Jon, - - You opened yourself up on this one!!! - - : ) - - Jim - - -----Original Message----- - >From: jonlee (AT) wt (DOT) net - >Sent: May 15, 2006 11:36 AM - >To: Shelby List <shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com> - >Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks - > - >Jim: - > - >I find it interesting that you said "I remember back in the early 1980s when people either drove their Shelbys to the SAAC national convention or their trailers were pulled by a Ford vehicle." - since - >I just bought me a new 06 Crew Cab Chevy Silverado Duallie and yes the thought about towing a Shelby with a Chevy made me feel weird but then again...I could not resist the new Duramax 6.6 (360 - hp) - >with 6 speed auto Allison tranny. I think it beats the King Ranch Fords from a mechanical standpoint. - > - >jon - > - > - > - > - > - > - >- - >- - >- - >- Bob, - >- - >- There is still much truth to what that Ford person said years ago. Old Fords don't make Ford money now. If Ford doesn't make money now then they don't stay in business, pure and simple. Or at - least - >- that's the way they see it at Ford. - >- - >- I remember back in the early 1980s when people either drove their Shelbys to the SAAC national convention or their trailers were pulled by a Ford vehicle. It is not that way today, nor has it - been - >- that way in a long time. You see a lot of non-Ford vehicles as tow vehicles these days. - >- - >- If Ford can't translate the success of their marketing dollars into Ford new vehicle sales then they don't give much support to that activity. Ford can directly figure out the bang for their - buck - >- for the money they spend on NASCAR. They spend a lot of money on NASCAR and they measure the results. They know they get good results for the money they spend on NASCAR racing therefore they - will - >- continue spending their dollars there. Unfortunately Ford doesn’t measure other areas as well as they do NASCAR. - >- - >- If organizations like the MCA would do a survey to show that their members are enthusiasts of Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products and that they not only play with vintage stuff, but that their - >- everyday vehicles are Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln vehicles, then Mustang enthusiasts and their clubs would have a bigger voice inside of Ford. I guess you could argue that Ford just takes our - >- support for granted. Ford has studied who Mustang buyers are. But I am not aware that Ford marketing has really even studied the relationship of the Mustang enthusiasts vs. what other vehicles - they - >- own. - >- - >- Yes, Ford takes new designs (all models) to focus clinics all the time as do other companies. Ford did this for the 1994 Mustang redesign, the 1999 redesign and the 2005 redesign. Why do they - have - >- to do this? It is because there are too many levels of management inside a large company like Ford and there are too many people inside of Ford who don't know how to style/design up the right - thing - >- for the market. As a whole, they need direction that ugly designs are ugly. Gearhead product development engineers know an ugly Mustang design when they see it. But a gearhead engineer's job - is not - >- to clay up the designs, nor is it to point out what is ugly to the marketing and design people. The engineer's job is to take what they are given and make it a reality, make sure it all fits - >- together and that it will last in the real world and survive customer neglect and abuse. There are a lot of good people (engineers and non-engineers) inside of Ford that know a good thing when - they - >- see it. But there are too many that don't have vision. There are too many bean counters, non-enthusiasts, and short-sighted middle management people at Ford that are more worried about last - month's - >- sales numbers, short term goals and their careers up the corporate ladder (or lack there of), then there are people who have a long term interest and proper vision in the company as a whole. I - love - >- the new Mustang and many of the current Ford products. I feel for the enthusiasts inside of Ford Motor Company, but I don't have empathy for a company that created the corporate culture that - breeds - >- the management they now have. - >- - >- One could argue that market dynamics are such that Ford can never really be fully in touch with all the consumers for any long period of time. I have my doubts that the company will understand - the - >- true Ford enthusiast and their relation to all Ford cars and trucks. In my opinion Ford is more concerned with new product, new customers, and market share than they are concerned with - enthusiasts. - >- Ford is more concerned with people who buy a new Ford every couple of years rather than someone who drives a Ford everyday but buys new every 7-12 years. - >- - >- Since we, the Ford enthusiast, are not understood and since we don't have a strong or united voice, it will be difficult to get our point across to Ford that they are doing something stupid - when - >- they are not even listening. Of course that doesn’t mean we shouldn't try. If we complain long enough they might get the idea. Then again they might get the idea when we stop complaining and - get - >- sour on Ford products and their market share continues to drop. - >- Jim Seisser - >- - >- - >- - >- - >- -----Original Message----- - >- From: RSANTER (AT) aol (DOT) com - >- Sent: May 15, 2006 4:14 PM - >- To: epalmer (AT) harris (DOT) com, ronald.robertson (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca, ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com, shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com - >- Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks - >- - >- - >- Back in the late 80s I had a conversation with a ford executive/managers (lower level) when I was at one of the bigger shows that they were displaying their new cars at. I forget what I said or - >- asked, bit he essentially told me that the old cars do not matter they are already sold and have no benefit to ford any longer. if we remember that is when ford was out of touch and was going - to - >- give us a front wheel drive mustang(probe). well I guess the got the message because when it came time for the design of what became the 94, the mustang club I was in was part of the focus - group - >- that gave feedback to the design direction of the then new car. - >- it seems ford has fallen out of touch again but in a different area. they need to understand their relation to this with the sales of ALL of their cars and not just the mustang - >- - >- bob - >- - >- ________________________________________ - >- PeoplePC Online - >- A better way to Internet - >- http://www.peoplepc.com - >- - > - > - > - > - >-- - >This message has been scanned for viruses and - >dangerous content by MailScanner, and is - >believed to be clean. - > - - - ________________________________________ - PeoplePC Online - A better way to Internet - http://www.peoplepc.com - - -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
Jim- Extremely well-put and correct message! I can tell you from past experience that there is strength in numbers. Back in 1974, BMW bought out Max Hoffman and formed BMW NA. They really discounted the club function as being unnecessary. It took a considerable amount of negotiating and demonstration to show that we were not only viable but helped sell their vehicles. Back then, we were only about 10,000 members. Over the past 30 years, we have grown to the point that they actually include a membership application to BMW CCA with each new owner's packet. Now, with about 75,000 members, it's a win-win situation. I still don't understand why MCA membership is so relatively small in comparison to the number of Mustangs sold. I will tell you that, like the enthuusiast Mustangers saving the RWD Mustang in '94, if it hadn't been for the BMW fanatics back in 1995, BMW would have never brought the M3 to the U.S. They didn't think it would be worth the money to produce a U.S. version. Regards, Stan ----- Original Message ----- From: ecj To: shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:15 AM Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Bob, There is still much truth to what that Ford person said years ago. Old Fords don't make Ford money now. If Ford doesn't make money now then they don't stay in business, pure and simple. Or at least that's the way they see it at Ford. I remember back in the early 1980s when people either drove their Shelbys to the SAAC national convention or their trailers were pulled by a Ford vehicle. It is not that way today, nor has it been that way in a long time. You see a lot of non-Ford vehicles as tow vehicles these days. If Ford can't translate the success of their marketing dollars into Ford new vehicle sales then they don't give much support to that activity. Ford can directly figure out the bang for their buck for the money they spend on NASCAR. They spend a lot of money on NASCAR and they measure the results. They know they get good results for the money they spend on NASCAR racing therefore they will continue spending their dollars there. Unfortunately Ford doesn't measure other areas as well as they do NASCAR. If organizations like the MCA would do a survey to show that their members are enthusiasts of Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products and that they not only play with vintage stuff, but that their everyday vehicles are Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln vehicles, then Mustang enthusiasts and their clubs would have a bigger voice inside of Ford. I guess you could argue that Ford just takes our support for granted. Ford has studied who Mustang buyers are. But I am not aware that Ford marketing has really even studied the relationship of the Mustang enthusiasts vs. what other vehicles they own. Yes, Ford takes new designs (all models) to focus clinics all the time as do other companies. Ford did this for the 1994 Mustang redesign, the 1999 redesign and the 2005 redesign. Why do they have to do this? It is because there are too many levels of management inside a large company like Ford and there are too many people inside of Ford who don't know how to style/design up the right thing for the market. As a whole, they need direction that ugly designs are ugly. Gearhead product development engineers know an ugly Mustang design when they see it. But a gearhead engineer's job is not to clay up the designs, nor is it to point out what is ugly to the marketing and design people. The engineer's job is to take what they are given and make it a reality, make sure it all fits together and that it will last in the real world and survive customer neglect and abuse. There are a lot of good people (engineers and non-engineers) inside of Ford that know a good thing when they see it. But there are too many that don't have vision. There are too many bean counters, non-enthusiasts, and short-sighted middle management people at Ford that are more worried about last month's sales numbers, short term goals and their careers up the corporate ladder (or lack there of), then there are people who have a long term interest and proper vision in the company as a whole. I love the new Mustang and many of the current Ford products. I feel for the enthusiasts inside of Ford Motor Company, but I don't have empathy for a company that created the corporate culture that breeds the management they now have. One could argue that market dynamics are such that Ford can never really be fully in touch with all the consumers for any long period of time. I have my doubts that the company will understand the true Ford enthusiast and their relation to all Ford cars and trucks. In my opinion Ford is more concerned with new product, new customers, and market share than they are concerned with enthusiasts. Ford is more concerned with people who buy a new Ford every couple of years rather than someone who drives a Ford everyday but buys new every 7-12 years. Since we, the Ford enthusiast, are not understood and since we don't have a strong or united voice, it will be difficult to get our point across to Ford that they are doing something stupid when they are not even listening. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If we complain long enough they might get the idea. Then again they might get the idea when we stop complaining and get sour on Ford products and their market share continues to drop. Jim Seisser -----Original Message----- From: RSANTER (AT) aol (DOT) com Sent: May 15, 2006 4:14 PM To: epalmer (AT) harris (DOT) com, ronald.robertson (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca, ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com, shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Back in the late 80s I had a conversation with a ford executive/managers (lower level) when I was at one of the bigger shows that they were displaying their new cars at. I forget what I said or asked, bit he essentially told me that the old cars do not matter they are already sold and have no benefit to ford any longer. if we remember that is when ford was out of touch and was going to give us a front wheel drive mustang(probe). well I guess the got the message because when it came time for the design of what became the 94, the mustang club I was in was part of the focus group that gave feedback to the design direction of the then new car. it seems ford has fallen out of touch again but in a different area. they need to understand their relation to this with the sales of ALL of their cars and not just the mustang bob ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Stan: Interesting sequel with BMW. As for why MCA doesn't have more members, I suppose there are many reasons, but here is mine from a personal standpoint. MCA for years was seen as a regional, good old boys club. Essentially, the idea many of us got was "us 4 and no more." They alienated many, many people including some long time MCA members and executive who formed another Ford club. In my opinion, their leadership reflected their attitude and so it was a case of "same old, same old." Their refusal to even consider resto-mods alienated a lot of prospective and current members who either cancelled their memberships, or refused to join. MCA has had a very poor membership following from Canada, for example, because for years Canadian clubs were simply ignored. Calls to MCA were simply not answered nor was any help given. I spoke personally to a former President of MCA about this and he simply ignored me. I contacted him several times and got absolutely no reply. So I cancelled my membership. Under the leadership of Arley Whitsell, MCA has made real efforts to be more inclusive. Their attitude, in my experience, has changed. Resto-mods are no longer a 4 letter word. When I contacted him personally with a long standing problem (previous answers from MCA were "it's not our problem") he not only answered me, he corrected the problem. I think things have started to turn around and under his direction, I think MCA is going to grow. I guess it's sort of like the current Ford trademark problem in miniature. Anyhow, that's my .02 worth based on personal experience. BTW, I once again a proud MCA member. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: STAN SIMM To: ecj ; shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 12:09 PM Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Jim- Extremely well-put and correct message! I can tell you from past experience that there is strength in numbers. Back in 1974, BMW bought out Max Hoffman and formed BMW NA. They really discounted the club function as being unnecessary. It took a considerable amount of negotiating and demonstration to show that we were not only viable but helped sell their vehicles. Back then, we were only about 10,000 members. Over the past 30 years, we have grown to the point that they actually include a membership application to BMW CCA with each new owner's packet. Now, with about 75,000 members, it's a win-win situation. I still don't understand why MCA membership is so relatively small in comparison to the number of Mustangs sold. I will tell you that, like the enthuusiast Mustangers saving the RWD Mustang in '94, if it hadn't been for the BMW fanatics back in 1995, BMW would have never brought the M3 to the U.S. They didn't think it would be worth the money to produce a U.S. version. Regards, Stan ----- Original Message ----- From: ecj To: shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 11:15 AM Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Bob, There is still much truth to what that Ford person said years ago. Old Fords don't make Ford money now. If Ford doesn't make money now then they don't stay in business, pure and simple. Or at least that's the way they see it at Ford. I remember back in the early 1980s when people either drove their Shelbys to the SAAC national convention or their trailers were pulled by a Ford vehicle. It is not that way today, nor has it been that way in a long time. You see a lot of non-Ford vehicles as tow vehicles these days. If Ford can't translate the success of their marketing dollars into Ford new vehicle sales then they don't give much support to that activity. Ford can directly figure out the bang for their buck for the money they spend on NASCAR. They spend a lot of money on NASCAR and they measure the results. They know they get good results for the money they spend on NASCAR racing therefore they will continue spending their dollars there. Unfortunately Ford doesn't measure other areas as well as they do NASCAR. If organizations like the MCA would do a survey to show that their members are enthusiasts of Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln products and that they not only play with vintage stuff, but that their everyday vehicles are Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln vehicles, then Mustang enthusiasts and their clubs would have a bigger voice inside of Ford. I guess you could argue that Ford just takes our support for granted. Ford has studied who Mustang buyers are. But I am not aware that Ford marketing has really even studied the relationship of the Mustang enthusiasts vs. what other vehicles they own. Yes, Ford takes new designs (all models) to focus clinics all the time as do other companies. Ford did this for the 1994 Mustang redesign, the 1999 redesign and the 2005 redesign. Why do they have to do this? It is because there are too many levels of management inside a large company like Ford and there are too many people inside of Ford who don't know how to style/design up the right thing for the market. As a whole, they need direction that ugly designs are ugly. Gearhead product development engineers know an ugly Mustang design when they see it. But a gearhead engineer's job is not to clay up the designs, nor is it to point out what is ugly to the marketing and design people. The engineer's job is to take what they are given and make it a reality, make sure it all fits together and that it will last in the real world and survive customer neglect and abuse. There are a lot of good people (engineers and non-engineers) inside of Ford that know a good thing when they see it. But there are too many that don't have vision. There are too many bean counters, non-enthusiasts, and short-sighted middle management people at Ford that are more worried about last month's sales numbers, short term goals and their careers up the corporate ladder (or lack there of), then there are people who have a long term interest and proper vision in the company as a whole. I love the new Mustang and many of the current Ford products. I feel for the enthusiasts inside of Ford Motor Company, but I don't have empathy for a company that created the corporate culture that breeds the management they now have. One could argue that market dynamics are such that Ford can never really be fully in touch with all the consumers for any long period of time. I have my doubts that the company will understand the true Ford enthusiast and their relation to all Ford cars and trucks. In my opinion Ford is more concerned with new product, new customers, and market share than they are concerned with enthusiasts. Ford is more concerned with people who buy a new Ford every couple of years rather than someone who drives a Ford everyday but buys new every 7-12 years. Since we, the Ford enthusiast, are not understood and since we don't have a strong or united voice, it will be difficult to get our point across to Ford that they are doing something stupid when they are not even listening. Of course that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. If we complain long enough they might get the idea. Then again they might get the idea when we stop complaining and get sour on Ford products and their market share continues to drop. Jim Seisser -----Original Message----- From: RSANTER (AT) aol (DOT) com Sent: May 15, 2006 4:14 PM To: epalmer (AT) harris (DOT) com, ronald.robertson (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca, ecj (AT) peoplepc (DOT) com, shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Back in the late 80s I had a conversation with a ford executive/managers (lower level) when I was at one of the bigger shows that they were displaying their new cars at. I forget what I said or asked, bit he essentially told me that the old cars do not matter they are already sold and have no benefit to ford any longer. if we remember that is when ford was out of touch and was going to give us a front wheel drive mustang(probe). well I guess the got the message because when it came time for the design of what became the 94, the mustang club I was in was part of the focus group that gave feedback to the design direction of the then new car. it seems ford has fallen out of touch again but in a different area. they need to understand their relation to this with the sales of ALL of their cars and not just the mustang bob ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Last night I was visiting a friend of mine who has had to deal with the Ford lawyers on trademark stuff before. In the discussions my friend had with one of the Ford lawyers, their lawyer said that they did not want to be quoted in public on what they were going after on use of names. My friend said that Ford was even going to go after people using the name "Pony" in their business names. My friend also spoke to higher-ups at SEMA and at Primedia. Neither of these organizations want to buck Ford on what they are doing on the name game thing. My friend got the impression that this all started 5+ years ago when Ford wanted to use the name GT40 for the Ford GT and found out that the GT40 name was controlled by Safir Engineering for their GT40 cars. I think if the general public (Mustang and Shelby enthuiasts like us) complains to Ford about this pratice of going after 20+ year old businesses with Mustang in their name and threaten a boycot of their products that it will have an affect. One person can make a difference! Jim Seisser ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
On Tue, 16 May 2006, ecj wrote: >Last night I was visiting a friend of mine who has had to deal with the >Ford lawyers on trademark stuff before. In the discussions my friend had >with one of the Ford lawyers, their lawyer said that they did not want >to be quoted in public on what they were going after on use of names. My >friend said that Ford was even going to go after people using the name >"Pony" in their business names. My friend also spoke to higher-ups at >SEMA and at Primedia. Neither of these organizations want to buck Ford on >what they are doing on the name game thing. My friend got the impression >that this all started 5+ years ago when Ford wanted to use the name GT40 >for the Ford GT and found out that the GT40 name was controlled by Safir >Engineering for their GT40 cars. That is a good example of what happens if Ford, or anyone, does not protect their trademarks, licenses, etc. Calvin http://hamptonroadsrotaryclub.com/ <<--our local club http://www.racecarstuff.com <<--my blog http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZcalvin767 <<--my ebay stuff
The biggest problem with fighting trademark lawsuits is that having a corporation does not protect you at all from the litigation. All officers / owners are personally financially liable in the litigation. It isn't that we can't help support any of the firms against Ford, it is that it does not help the fighting party if they lose. I do not know about why they are fighting it now or if they could win. Is there any case precedence such as with GM and Corvette companies? It sucks because the parts companies sell licenced Ford products and often modern Ford Racing products. That may be a loophole that could be explored, Ford has known of these companies and suplied them for many years. All I know is that it is high stakes poker and Ford has a stack of chips that is huge compared to any of the Mustang parts companies. I agree that spreading the word is a good thing. Bad press is not good for any company. Any suggestions of whom to contact or what to do to get a statement to Ford would be appreciated. Lee 66 #869 69 # 2055
Safir Engineering is not just a start-up company that secured a free-ranging GT40 moniker. They are a descendant company from the folks that made the original cars for Ford. The rights to 'GT40', for however it was shared or used originally, has resided in their hands. They were the first to reintroduce follow-on GT40s; in fact, I'd say ONLY THEIRS could be considered follow-on cars and are serial numbered sequentially with the original chasses used by Ford in the 60s. Tom 'hambone' Kubler Calvin Sanders <calvins (AT) highrpm (DOT) net> wrote: On Tue, 16 May 2006, ecj wrote: >... this all started 5+ years ago when Ford wanted to use the name GT40 >for the Ford GT and found out that the GT40 name was controlled by Safir >Engineering for their GT40 cars. That is a good example of what happens if Ford, or anyone, does not protect their trademarks, licenses, etc. Calvin
Lee: You obviously missed the e-mail yesterday with this info in it. E-mail the following addresses: crcredir (AT) ford (DOT) com (Customer Relationship Center) fordir (AT) ford (DOT) com (Ford Investor Relations) WFord (AT) ford (DOT) com (William Clay Ford, Jr.) Phone Numbers: (313) 322-3000 (800) 392-3673 Fax Number: (313) 845-6073 Go get 'em. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: GT350HZ (AT) aol (DOT) com To: shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks The biggest problem with fighting trademark lawsuits is that having a corporation does not protect you at all from the litigation. All officers / owners are personally financially liable in the litigation. It isn't that we can't help support any of the firms against Ford, it is that it does not help the fighting party if they lose. I do not know about why they are fighting it now or if they could win. Is there any case precedence such as with GM and Corvette companies? It sucks because the parts companies sell licenced Ford products and often modern Ford Racing products. That may be a loophole that could be explored, Ford has known of these companies and suplied them for many years. All I know is that it is high stakes poker and Ford has a stack of chips that is huge compared to any of the Mustang parts companies. I agree that spreading the word is a good thing. Bad press is not good for any company. Any suggestions of whom to contact or what to do to get a statement to Ford would be appreciated. Lee 66 #869 69 # 2055
Edward: Good point. The other point that needs to be mentioned is that one attracts more flies with honey than with vinegar. In other words, be nice. It is so easy to get carried away with our zeal and say things that will not help the cause. Outline our concern and the detrimental effect it will have on our hobby; a hobby dedicated to the preservation of classic Mustangs and promotion of the Ford name and reputation. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Palmer, Edward To: Ronald. Robertson ; GT350HZ (AT) aol (DOT) com ; shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:24 AM Subject: RE: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Better yet, real letters seem to have more impact: Ford Motor Company Customer Relationship Center P.O. Box 6248 Dearborn, MI 48126 Ed Palmer Mechanical Engineer Harris Corp. GCSD Adv. Manufacturing Tech. Office: (321) 727-6303 Pager: (321) 690-8761 epalmer (AT) harris (DOT) com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Ronald. Robertson [mailto:ronald.robertson (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca] Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 8:11 AM To: GT350HZ (AT) aol (DOT) com; shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks Lee: You obviously missed the e-mail yesterday with this info in it. E-mail the following addresses: crcredir (AT) ford (DOT) com (Customer Relationship Center) fordir (AT) ford (DOT) com (Ford Investor Relations) WFord (AT) ford (DOT) com (William Clay Ford, Jr.) Phone Numbers: (313) 322-3000 (800) 392-3673 Fax Number: (313) 845-6073 Go get 'em. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: GT350HZ (AT) aol (DOT) com To: shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Ford/Mustang Trademarks The biggest problem with fighting trademark lawsuits is that having a corporation does not protect you at all from the litigation. All officers / owners are personally financially liable in the litigation. It isn't that we can't help support any of the firms against Ford, it is that it does not help the fighting party if they lose. I do not know about why they are fighting it now or if they could win. Is there any case precedence such as with GM and Corvette companies? It sucks because the parts companies sell licenced Ford products and often modern Ford Racing products. That may be a loophole that could be explored, Ford has known of these companies and suplied them for many years. All I know is that it is high stakes poker and Ford has a stack of chips that is huge compared to any of the Mustang parts companies. I agree that spreading the word is a good thing. Bad press is not good for any company. Any suggestions of whom to contact or what to do to get a statement to Ford would be appreciated. Lee 66 #869 69 # 2055
