Oil Warning

Isn't Amsoil sold like Mary Kay thru an MLM dealer network?

 

Does not seem to be any consensus amongst the oil gurus on this subject. Many recommend the heavy duty oils for older engines. I am not sure what constitutes as "older". I believe roller cams became more dominant around 1989. Perhaps anything earlier than 1990 would qualify as older.

robin

 

I thought this horse was dead. Please, no more scare tactics. Would you happen to be an Amsoil dealer?

http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/showtopic.php?tid/1474697/post/1772224/hl/

Z. Ray

 

Does any one know if the cam shaft manufacturers are adjusting the metallurgy of the slider cams to cope with a lower zinc content in motor oils?

robin

 

I didn't mean to come off so harsh.

Yes, it is a concern, but there are many solutions to the problem. The synthetic oils previously mentioned are probably the best solution for many. I have been using Mobil 1 15W-50 for 18,000 miles now with no measurable wear, no leaks, and no problems,

Also, several additives are now in the marketplace, for those that want more security.

ex: http://www.zddplus.com/

Also, a few oz. (4 or so) of the Crane or Comp Cams break in additives can be added at oil changes to boost the ZDDP levels if desired.


Unfortunately, there is NO scientific data, or studies, as of yet, that link the reduction of ZDDP to the failure of flat tappet camshafts. All the evidence of a link is anecdotal in nature, not scientific. Since we are shrinking minority, there is not much of of possibility that a comprehensive study will ever be done on the subject.

Z. Ray

 

There is no easy answer to the oil question regarding flat tappet cams. This subject has been discussed on the various forums for about two years now. IMHO one of the best sources for info on this subject is the Bob is the Oil Guy website. Tons of info here posted by some very knowledgeable people so take your time and read through it.

I agree with zrayz's comments. We are a minority and it's up to us to do the research and determine what's best for our cars based on individual useage. As he points out there are solutions. FWIW, I have been using a heavy duty (HD) oil, Chevron Delo 15W-40, with excellent results. Even the HD oils are becoming subject to EPA regulations requiring less zinc so one of the break-in additives used conservatively may ba a good preventative measure.

 

Folks, engine oil is not the only lubricant family loosing zinc compounds. The ISO grades of hydraulic oil are too. I won’t mention company names but I work in a very high volume manufacturing plant for one of the world’s largest companies. We have hundreds of hydraulic system from tiny power units to gigantic injection molding presses in our facility. We have used under international contract one particular brand of IS0 46 oil for decades. We have a full time technician just to monitor oil condition, have samples of oil sent for analysis, and service extreme performance filtration systems. When we added a full time technician and he talked us into pressure filtration at every costly machine our yearly repair and replacement cost dropped off in the seven figure dollar amount the first year. Barring some type of contamination like a coolant leak oil in running machines usually tests out cleaner than brand new oil in drums. (We also have a reclamation area that can remove all particulates and some contaminates.)
Anyway, the oil we have used for decades had generous levels of zinc compounds in it. In a global cost cutting move our company contracted with another oil company. The oil still meets ISO 46 requirements but has no zinc compounds. The conversion started in some of my equipment. In the first three weeks of the new no zinc oil I had four years worth of down time and some ugly catastrophic failures (equipment damaged so badly it was not salvageable). Many tens of thousands of dollars later we went back to the old oil even though it was against company policy at that point. It was simple to me, go back or shut the factory down and send over 1,000 people into unemployment. The new oil company was upset too and had their North American guru contact me. I described the equipment, the exact application, and the results of changing to their oil. I asked if they had any oil with zinc compounds, the answer no.
In our last contact (new oil company) he indicated that zinc free oil works in most applications but will not work in them all. He recommended officially we use the oil we used for decades (25+ years) without trouble.
When all this ZDDP discussion started a few years ago I contacted most of the larger oil companies and specialty companies. I dug past sales people and got to engineers. Every sales person said all their materials pass the applicable tests. Every engineer said if they had a car like mine and wanted to preserve the original engine that they didn’t have a commercial product they would recommend for it. This wasn’t from just a camshaft lobe and tappet interface discussion. Because of various technical details original ball and socket rocker arm and camshaft gear and distributor gear interfaces were also discussed as potential problem areas. That was in the 2004-2005 time frame. Since then specialty companies have started offering engine oils that while expensive, should do the job. Off road and diesel oils are not the long term solution as their zinc levels are being cut too, catalytic converter equipped big trucks are now available and will soon be the only thing made new.
In the end, I will spend money where ever I can to be able to preserve my original engine and its original cam installed by Ford in 1964. I want to drive and enjoy the car. The oil companies are not into preserving your old car. When they say they pass the tests required that can literally mean barely pass (see note below) them. Pass to them means get new cars past their warrantee period and not last 40+ years. Your government and the OEMs probably don’t want cars to last more than just past warrantee. They want you to buy new technology and recycle the old.

Note:
30+ years ago I was the technican in our plant adding a ZDDP compound to oil in our product. Why did we add it? To increase service life. A product with no additive was statistically capabale of running at least five years before crankshaft wear passed engineering limits and or started to cause end users problems. Just adding the ZDDP increased service life average to over twenty years. Oh no, can't do that so product planners had us stop using it.

 

I forgot maybe the most important detail. IF YOU decide to try any material in your pride and joy and it fails it is totally YOUR problem. The company that produced the oil will promise it passes lab tests but it is up to YOU to determine fitness for YOUR application. If YOU have a failure the oil company will blame YOUR actions. (Check out the many threads on this subject on the Internet.) They do lab tests on engines they can buy off the shelf by the dozens cheaply. Do you want to use your original engine as a test bed to see if it fails?

 

One yes and one no. One of them didn't care about me and my old car and one spent a lot of time with me. The one that did seem sympathetic couldn't help me back then as at the time you could go modern street car formula or all out racing formula from them. There wasn't any real middle ground. The street oils were not guaranteed to be suitable for my (up to 7,000 rpm or more - I use to run old zinc rich oil up to 8,500 rpm with no issues in a 1965 GT350) application and racing oils didn't have the viscosities, detergents, dispersants, and other package components suitable a mostly street driven car. On the street 10W40 is still too much viscosity with my Melling® high volume pump so the 40 and up race only oils on street were just no way. (Way back when I was running open track events I installed a Ford/Hayden oil cooler system similar to the Shelby/Hayden systems available in the 1960s. Lowering the oil temperature required a lower viscosity oil for street driving. On track I used a straight 40 racing oil. I should probably remove the oil cooler now.)
What I want is an oil company tested commercial 10W30 or maybe even a 10W20 street oil with enough ZDDP to be able to handle occasional sprints. I am wary about adding anything to commercial oils as frothing and other problems can result if the additive is incompatible with the additive package the oil maker put in. Additives could do more harm than good, especially if added in too high of a concentration.
I am not really concerned with the cost of the oil. There is no way for me to measure dollars per quart against my original engine. Dollars per quart can be replaced so to speak while my engine only exists once. I participated in the above mentioned oil forum back when this all first unfolded a few years ago. No one would say yes if I owned a Cobra whose engine still had its original camshaft I would use product such and such. The best anybody would do is say try something and get frequent oil analysis and stop what you are doing if accelerated wear is indicated by testing. Whow! Me try stab in the dark hoping not to ruin my engine? No way! The next best scenario was buy another engine for testing and store my original. Okay, how easy and cost effective was that going to be? You just don’t go down and buy NOS 1964 289 parts at the local Ford dealer at 1964 prices anymore. Like many things the difference between passes test by the maker and lasts a long time are much different. In our application at work adding ZDDP increased average crankshaft life (as determined by measurement of journal wear) 4X+. Meets specification equaled five years. Make an improvement equaled more than twenty years. This concerns me a work because I have equipment I installed as far back as 1987 that has run 24 hours a day seven says a week without an oil change and they have ZDDP in their gearboxes. The OEM has been surprised they lasted past five years, we still talk about it. They don’t like customers getting decades of use out of something they intended to run five. Bad for their business.
The last oil problem is consistency. All the companies seem to be changing their product offerings every six months or so. Whatever they sell right now today might not be available months from now. This has happened with all the major brands since 2003. It was very frustrating for me to talk to an engineer at company X and get comfortable with trying some material only to find that sales at company X just discontinued it and pulled it from distribution. I did this with three companies….arghhhhh! There are lesser known and smaller companies around and some seem to offer great products but will they stay in the old car market? I hate to convert and get comfortable again just to have to start all over next year. Right now I am nervously using a commercial 10W30 with a second party additive.

 

I rarely mention company names but I found something interesting about one product line back around 1980 when I built up a very strong GT350 engine. I was worried back then about cam damage (and piston scuffing) in the over 8,000 rpm range. I picked an oil and started researching. The company had

Cheap Oil
Medium Price Oil
Extreme Duty Oil

The price difference between Cheap and Extreme was very significant. The difference in oils? Just one thing.

0.10 ZDDP
0.15 ZDDP
0.35 ZDDP (at least this is what I recall)

Hmmm. I use to get the ZDDP in 35 gallon containers at work and I don't think the cost difference at the market place was porportional.