Shelby and SAAC at Odds

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It happens in real estate as well, I don't know if it's a BIG problem, but it's certainly something to be aware off. I almost lost a house to an unscruplous 'partner' of mine. I made a 100K profit on it, but darn near lost the deal and DID loose a 'friend'. When big money is at stake, it does strange things to people. At what point do you draw the line as to whats fair game and what isn't? Immediatly AFTER the Ad has been posted? When you get the call and the potential buyer isn't 'sure about the money' and wants to 'think about it'? At what point IS the item 'fair game'? It's an ethical question more than a legal one.

Like the house, it had JUST been forclosed on. I say I saved the guy from certain eviction, and he was happy! Others say I ripped him off, I say they hesitated and lost the deal. How you gonna know without the details?

 

Re: As far as not receiving something ordered....

Considering SAAC has updates about the Registry posted on their Web Site and when it will get Printed, AND the fact that it is now three Books instead one, I think you should give SAAC a little slack on this issue. The Registry can not be done over night. It can only be Fraud if SAAC Publishes the Book and does NOT send it to those who have paid for it OR if they decide not to publish it and do not return the Money (unless they file Chaper 7 like UP did).
David.

 

WOW........ SAAC is a "For Profit Business". What would happen if they File Chapter 7 ? Just a thought.
David.

 

To me, if you pass on it or take to long to decide if you want it, it is fair game for anyone. I don't take deposits or hold a car for someone to put in thier "Futures Bank". I am sorry but the First one with the Cash takes it. I have seen where some Realtors will call a House Flipper before ever listing the House just to get the Finders Fee because they make more money that way, and sometimes under the table. I have made money finding good deals for people but if they dont pay me fast enough, I start calling other people who do what they say.
David.

 

tesgt350, now thats what I'm talking about, you snooze you loose. Life is brutal that way. But please, give me a minute to make up my mind,,,,, OK, minutes up, you in or out?

 

I paid for a book in 2004 with the understanding I would get it when they are out. I think at that time they were expecting them out in 2007 but I sure didn't think I was getting it in 04 or 05.I'm still sure I will get it. If you want a 1997 version I think Branda sells them.

 

Well, in 2004, I am sure that SAAC wasn't expecting all the new Shelby's comming out and I know they were not expecting all the new problems that they are dealing with. BUT........ BUT, now that they can only do the Vintage Years, they will have to have time to Back Up and re-configure a bit.
David.

 

eljimbo - what exactly are the 2 pix attached to my quote?
most of the letters are not visible - please provide a explanation, as I can not see how it applies to my comment. Are you implying that the portion of the 1st letter we can see is a memo from Rick telling the recipient that the car is not a Shelby, and the 2nd pix shows he somehow stole the car out from under him? there is not enough content to link those two without showing more detail, if there is any.

thanks!!!

Mike

 

I have mixed thoughts and feelings about all of this. So this will be a positive post.

I like the thought about two national conventions a year.

I like the thought about more track events a year.

I like the thought about two club magazines, and more of them.

I like the thought about two websites.

I like the thought about change into the computer age.

What do you want? or

 

Response from Rick Kopec regarding the Shelby letter.


"Everyone is naturally very curious about the Shelby Vs. SAAC situation. However, SAAC's lawyers have advised us not to engage in the displaying of selected pieces of correspondence on the internet. Nor should we respond publicly to any of Shelby’s printed statements. We are not paying these guys a hefty hourly rate just to disregard their advice. Answering allegations and presenting "evidence" in the court of public opinion may be of interest to club members and forum readers who view this as some kind of ongoing soap opera, but these kinds of things are best saved for presentation to the actual jury by trained lawyers if that becomes necessary. There are serious issues to be settled here, none of which will be decided on the internet. Forum members making comments or statements are free to say anything they wish, usually anonymously. They are not under oath to tell the truth, nor are they bound by perjury laws. Conversely, those with standing in the actual case could be called on to testify in court and anything written by them in a forum such as this could be presented as evidence. It does make you think before you write.

Several people have made statements regarding the licensing agreement that Shelby and SAAC's directors signed. Some have said they would like to see this document. That will not be possible because contained in the document was a confidentiality agreement. We could not post it even if we wanted to.

All this said, there seems to be some misinformation about the details surrounding what I discovered in the attic of Shelby's Gardena building. and what became of it. I have no problem laying out these details as I expect that if this matter finds its way into court I will be asked about them in detail. And I will say the same thing under oath than I am saying now. I offer them only to clear up any misconceptions and to hopefully set the record straight.

In the early 1980s, when I was visiting Los Angeles, I would stop by Shelby's Gardena facility to see Lew Spencer and Al Dowd, who were working as Mr. Shelby's administrative assistants. On one such visit, in 1984, Lew Spencer was showing me something the storage area in the attic above the offices when I noticed a long row of cardboard boxes stacked up, two or three high, against the eves. There were probably 100 or more. I asked Spencer what was in them and he said he didn't know. They were temporary cardboard file boxes with a handle which was used to pull out a drawer. Each drawer was filled with paperwork, documents, files of correspondence, work orders, invoices for parts, ledgers and financial records. All of the paperwork left behind by a medium-sized company which was no longer in operation. In the few drawers I opened I could not see any sort of organization. Things seemed to be thrown in haphazardly. Some boxes had obviously been spilled out and the contents scooped up and thrown back in the drawers. There were too many boxes to go through, each containing hundreds and maybe thousands of separate pieces of paper so I asked Spencer if I could come back the next time I was in town to take a closer look. He said I could spend all the time I liked.

Over the next ten years I was able to visit the attic perhaps a dozen or more times. Sometimes I brought one or two other club members with me. At first we were happy to make copies of what we considered the more important pieces of paperwork—usually anything with serial numbers on it. Some shipping orders listed 6 or more cars, all shipped on the same day. We often came in the summer when the temperature in the uninsulated attic was over 100 degrees. We had to bend down under the low rafters and there was only a single bare light bulb. Everything was dusty. The things we found were all pieces of a large puzzle but we quickly realized that not all the pieces were there. At some point, we knew we would never have enough time to go through each document or work order individually. And we didn't want to wear out our welcome (and Shelby's photocopy machine) so I asked Spencer if we could sort through everything and take entire boxes of stuff which I would pay to have shipped back to CT where we could review them more thoroughly and at a more leisurely pace. He said he would ask Mr. Shelby. He did, and Mr. Shelby said we could take anything we wanted because it had been there for 25 years and nobody had even looked in those boxes in all that time.

We separated out the boxes which had material that appeared promising. Since this was slow and tedious work it required several visits, over the period of a couple of years. As a box was filled we marked it to be saved and Spencer labeled them "Save for Rick Kopec" with my address on them. His worry was that somebody would give the order for the place to be cleaned out when he wasn't around and the stuff would be hauled out to the dumpster.

After we had looked through all of the boxes, we had separated 14 of them which would be shipped back to CT. Spencer said he would have some of his employees move them down to the first floor at some point and stack them on a pallet. I made arrangements for a couple of SAAC members to drop by a few days later, pick up the boxes and take them to a freight forwarding company for shipment back to CT. Included in the documents were two boxes of cancelled Shelby American company checks from 1962 to 1966. To my knowledge, Mr. Shelby never saw what was inside any of the boxes and neither did Lew Spencer.

Back in CT we sorted through the boxes and separated out everything which pertained to types of cars: 289 and 427 Cobras, 1965 and 1966 GT350s and even a few things relating to King Cobras and 1966 Trans-Am but every piece helped. It provided nowhere near a full accounting of the cars but it was better than anything we had discovered to date. This information was used in the 1997 registry. In most cases it confirmed what we had already discovered about these cars through owners and former owners. In a lot of cases the paperwork created more questions than it answered.

One of the chapters in the 1997 Registry was titled "The Evolution of the Registry." It outlined how the registry began and who was involved. It recounted the publication of each registry chronologically, ending at the present with the 1997 edition. In it I gave credit to Shelby for allowing us access to this factory paperwork and as we were interested in only the information on it, once we took that information the actual papers themselves had no value to us. It hardly mattered whether we had originals or photocopies. So I said that if Mr. Shelby ever wanted this stuff back he had only to ask because all we were interested in was the information. References to this was in Mr. Shelby's response statement. But, as Paul Harvey says, there's the rest of the story.

This Registry was printed and shipped to about 1000 people who had ordered a copy in advance of printing in December of 1997. About 200 more copies were ordered by members outside of the U.S. and shipping those required detailed customs forms which each had to be filled out by hand, one at a time, and attached to the boxes by a special plastic envelope. This took a lot of time and instead of attending the 1998 Las Vegas event in January, I chose to stay home to ship the overseas orders.

Mr. Shelby did not attend SAAC-23 in Charlotte in July, so the next time I saw him in person was at the Las Vegas event in February of 1998. There he told me what a great job we did on the book. I responded that the paperwork we found in his attic was a big help in filling in some gaps and answering some questions. He said that he was happy it was put to good use and there was no need for me to return it. When he said this, in the parking lot of his facility at the Las Vegas Motor Speedway on the Sunday of the event, there were four other SAAC members standing with us who all heard him tell me I could keep everything. Mr. Shelby seems to have forgotten that.

When I got home following the Las Vegas event I went through the paperwork and separated what appeared to have some historical value (most of it minor and esoteric) from that which did not (financial ledger pages, sales receipts for individual parts which were ordered through the mail, meaningless correspondence and the like). As I did not have unlimited space and was tired of moving these boxes around, I took the unimportant paperwork to the dump.

There were two boxes of cancelled company checks. Initially I thought they could be arranged to tell some sort of a story but there were too many (a guess would be more than 10,000) and no matter how you sorted or arranged them no discernible picture was created. Some were signed by Shelby and some were payments to employees or drivers. I began giving these away, a few at a time, mostly to regions putting on events (where they were used as door prizes) or at the conventions (at Watkins Glen we put a large number into a notebook for the silent bid auction, with the proceeds going to the Shelby Heart Fund). When the Shelby American Collection museum solicited items for its silent bid auction each winter I sent them a number of checks each year which they mounted with pictures of team cars or drivers. I gave a number of checks to Shelby, himself, for various Heart Fund functions. At Las Vegas one winter I met a guy who matted and framed pictures for Shelby and he began creating displays which were sold by the charity. I gave him a large number (a few hundred at least—about 3"). Shortly thereafter I heard he and Shelby had a falling out. Later I heard that some checks were being sold on ebay and I assumed they either came from the various ones I had been giving away or the ones the picture-framer took with him. It didn't concern me very much until Mr. Shelby began whining that someone was selling "his" checks on ebay. I asked him if he wanted the ones I still had returned and he said yes. So the next time I went to the Las Vegas event I brought two large boxes with me. Vincent Liska and I carried them into his office and put them on his desk. Frankly, I was glad to be rid of them.

I guess the kindest thing to say about Mr. Shelby's recollections, as recounted in his statement, is that his memory probably isn't what it once was. There were no "truckloads" of documents shipped to me. In fact, if he checks his attic he will probably find the boxes and boxes that were left behind. As for selling his stuff on ebay, I've never bought or sold anything on ebay. That should be pretty easy for them to check. And as for wanting his personal property returned, I have one question: what part of "give" doesn't he understand?"

 

It is amazing that little used checks could rip the entire shelby community in half.
I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.
I think that both sides have done lots of things right, and a few things wrong....but is this really needed?
I can only sit back and hope for a peaceful solution....although i doubt it.
Its a shame.
Once again, this whole thing could work out for the best though.
Vern

 

I really don't see this as a response to Shelby's letter. While it does obliquely address some of the issues raised, the real issue to me is whether SAAC has met their obligations under the Shelby-SAAC agreement (not saying they have or haven't). I guess the response is understandable (almost made me cry <lol>) since what might be relevant details can't, and likely shouldn't, be discussed in a public forum anyway -- so I won't.

From an enthusiast viewpoint, I'd like to see one point of control for everything Shelby -- handled in a manner that most effectively serves the clubs and all owners/enthusiasts of Shelby products in a way consistent with how Carroll Shelby himself would like it to be.

That said, I will only characterize my opinion of the SAAC 'response' to Shelby by way of a cute story that surfaced in the news recently (below) ;-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Judy Wallman, a professional genealogical researcher, discovered that Hillary Clinton's great-great uncle, Remus Rodham, was hanged for horse stealing and train robbery in Montana in 1889.

The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows. On the back of the picture is this inscription:

'Remus Rodham; horse thief, sent to Montana Territorial Prison 1885,
escaped 1887, robbed the Montana Flyer six times. Caught by Pinkerton detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.'


Judy e-mailed Hillary Clinton for comments.

Hillary's staff of professional image adjusters sent back the
following biographical sketch:

Remus Rodham was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory.

His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad.

Beginning in 1883, he devoted several years of his life to service at
a government facility, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the railroad.

In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the
renowned Pinkerton Detective Agency.

In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed.'


And THAT is how SPIN works!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

(I just love that story! <lol>)​

 

Autoblog is at least several days behind the curve on this one. Shelbys response and SAAC's response to the responce are all ready posted and being discussed on other sites. Whew, this news travels at the speed of light, yesterday is ancient history all ready.

 

Amen brother, amen...

 

I disagree.. the value of these cars is a function of what they are and the cred they established in racing and on the street.

I think SAAC has provided valuable services to members -- all at the contractual pleasure of Mr. Shelby - and those services should contine in some form.

But the cars would be just as great (or not) whether SAAC gathered and recorded the information or not. Granted, information is a powerful thing and by SAAC's efforts many have been spared untold hours of research because of them.

While that may serve to make it easier to show the uniqueness a particular car and drive the collector value up, it in now way makes these cars the legends that they are. That was earned the good old fashioned way, imo.

Put another way, an early 427 racing Cobra would be just as desireable to the enthusiast whether it appears on a list or not, imho, but just having the list/registry is also a tremendous asset to all enthusiasts, collectors or otherwise.

 

While I agree in theory the value of the original cars would be just as high, the number of 'air cars', 'story cars' and 'fraud cars' would be significant without SAAC's work. OK, lets assume the value of the originals would be unaffected. But I also imagine a LOT of people would have spent a LOT of money on dubious cars and scramble like heck to cover their investment, no matter what that might take. It would be a nightmare trying to buy or sell an original under a cloud of suspicion AND so difficult, in some cases IMPOSSIBLE, to raise that cloud.

I can't help but think that WOULD impact the values of a bunch, if not all, of the original cars. If you own one, you really gotta thank SAAC for their fore sight on this matter.

Consider the 'numbers matching' Vettes and Chevys for sale. When I see 'numbers matching' car as it relates to a Vette, I just roll my eyes, it doesn't mean squat anymore. Why? Because SAAC never tracked them!

 

Very Well Said.
Vern

 

;-)