Shelby and SAAC at Odds

I have an issue with a 'corporate entity' taking control of the records of the old cars. Corporate entities are formed, funded and driven to serve one purpose, make money. In that environment how long would it take for the records of cars sold 40+ years ago to become an unwanted stepchild merely because they don't make money off of those cars anymore! Add to that the distinct possibility of 'creative management' of the records and you have a nightmare in the making. Now, as to values. I do not really care what the going prices are, because I will never sell....period. BUT; let a few 'air cars' and outright fakes slip thru, and values will decline. Afterall, does anybody think the corporate entity will respond as quickly as SAAC? For Pete's sake, it took him 2 years to deliver CSX 4000's at one point! And don't get me started on the Series One! With this track record, would you be willing to take the chance with provenance records????
My .02

 

The four lines that follow those words of mine explain why.

Why now? Because Shelby terminated the agreement now. It's that simple.

 

I read this as : Rumor. Sorry, especially when I read that first sentence.
David.

 

In Post 230, you said "As for people going to work for team shelby, team shelby is starting to draft saac's people from what i hear......
And, SAAC takes such an agressive position on this matter thta some saac members feel that these people are betraying their cause."

"Draft" is not the same as just asking a SAAC member for help, it Implies that Team Shelby hired them away from SAAC. So far, I have not heard any SAAC members bash anyone for Joining Team Shelby or helping them in any way. I am a member of SAAC, MCA and now Team Shelby. I have learned a lot form SAAC and the only reason why I can't say that about Team Shelby is because they are a new Club.

I would like to see SAAC merge with Team Shelby and still head up the Vintage part. I also feel that SAAC needs to find some younger people who are into the Vintage Shelby's and train them how SAAC is run to keep it going in the future. After all the SAAC Board will not be around for ever.
David.

 

Re: Corporations don't care about history that much

The November 14 (cease & desist) letter is very specific in what it asks for. Aside from immediate cessation of use of Shelby's Trademarks, most all compliance items apply only to January 1, 1996 and later. Why I do not know, but it would seem to exclude prior records.

The letter (fax) was/is posted on the SAAC forum site.

 

Absolutely right - corporations are there to serve their owners and presumably make money.

Here is an idea that may not have been floated before . . . I heard that there are about 12,000,000 shares outstanding of Carroll Shelby Inc. or whatever the parent company is that controls interests in SAI, CSL, etc. If there are 5,000 SAAC members, that means about 2,400 shares per person. At current prices, that is less than $800. That is if everyone bought in and prices stayed the same (I'm not a broker, not saying that would happen). I don't know how much people are planning to contribute towards the "legal fund," but it seems this could be money better spent to achieve whatever your ultimate goal is.


So . . . everyone can stop bitching about what could happen if Shelby "the corporation" takes over for SAAC and looks only for the money - control the company and, as owners, decline the money in favor of keeping the registry the way you want it.

 

I like that idea.
David.

 

Now we are on the same page!
Vern

 

Just my two cents...lets not forget where all of Shelby American's paperwork was before SAAC was allowed to peruse it; in a warehouse attic, covered in dust. The records were long forgotten about. If SAI and CSL ceases operations where will all the current records go? Probably into some warehouse or to the dump.
Regaring SAAC 's non-renewal letter' doesn't that occur in early February of 2008?

Joe.

 

I am concerned that Shelby Autos could get caught up in the downturn in the economy, rising gas prices, competative offerings from GM and Chrysler etc. It could effect the companies health and commitment. If these pressures required cut backs I would think things that do not generate revenue would go first. 60's cars and Registry tasks are not money makers. How would the enthusiests feel if Shelby was succussful in his efforts to torpedo SAAC and a few years later either had to abandon what SAAC did or went out of business all together.
I think we would all be angry, including people who are middle of the road as well as some Shelby Autos backers. A win win is to have the 2 seperate clubs and have Shelby stop with the lawyer crap so we can all enjoy our cars. Lets face it we all like both the old and new cars. The division is occuring because of Shelby trying to hurt SAAC.
Dave

 

Here is a Thought.......... Put the Registrys under a Charity (Carroll Shelby Children's Foundation). Anyone seeking info on a car must pay to receive a report simular to a Marti-Report, BUT it does not have the "Secret Info". It bassicly just states that YES is or NO it is not a Shelby, and if it is a Shelby, what Color the Body & Interior is, Trans, Engine, Options, etc........ They could pay $50.00 or $100.00 for the Info and they must include the vehicles Vin# and the Shelby# before the info is given to them.
If the person seeking the info can give the VIN# and the Shelby#, then it would at least prove that he is looking at the Car. The Info given would NOT include the current owners Name & Address. It would be a great idea to offer this service to those wishing to purchase a Shelby. I am sure that they would be willing to pay for the service to prove that what they are looking at is in fact a Shelby with the correct items.
David.

 

Dave once again you propose fear, regardless of what people think or what you want people to think, Shelby autos is healthier then it has been in 20 years, it has been funded by Carroll in hard times for most of those years, so now that it has multi millions in the bank it is in a better shape then ever.

Carrolls legacy will go on, long after saac, long after SAI, those plans are in place and his marks and records will go on as well. Fear is a bad thing to spread, yet you continue to spread that.

Dave, If you speak for saac and you want everything to go on, why is no one ever trying to resolve, just continued fear spreading here on these sites. In Carroll's eyes, SAAC is hurting him, by ignoring him, ignoring his team, ignoring his input. His lawyers wouldn't have been called if someone responded to licensing requests since February. SAAC has not responded except in press and online, What do think will happen by still not responding formally? You can blame Carroll all you want, he is a big target, but the bottom line is SAAC has not done right by him or the license. This is his opinion, SAAC has there's, you have yours, I have mine. Opinion are great, it is just that, opinions, it won't change the course of events unfolding, actions change the events.

As a side bar, Carroll and his trust own more the half of Shelby International, this is a business owned and run By Carroll Shelby personally, this is not some faceless corporation. Some might want to project that to keep the fear going and talk about corporation $$$ and the such, but it is all not true. Shelby has run this company the way he wants, he has poured money into the company and into team shelby, all the events planned and membership, the site, etc, are not $$$ makers, they are brand builders. There is a huge difference.

Carroll owns his company, he is chairman and CEO, he is in touch daily on all things CSI

Amy

PS- I am sorry, I did say I wouldn't post but the absurdity of this is amazing, from a strictly business point of view If 2 entities have an issue, and the licensee has the most to lose, proper rules of engagement dictate, The licensee should pick up the phone, not start a defense fund.

This is my opinion, I speak for me, not Carroll, unless he tells me too, flame away if you need to, but change will not happen by sitting on the side watching it and happen.


A

 

This I address to the body, not to specifically to Amy, for whom I have great respect.
Ernie

The other records SAAC obtained were from Ford and were right on the verge of being thrown out, and why not? Why should Ford, a corporation, hold onto boxes of 'worthless to them' paperwork after say X number of years?

If some corporation tried to take over the name of my business, I'd pick up the phone all right, and call my lawyer FIRST! Just because your being sued by someone doesn't make them right, thats why we have courts. One more thing, their is HUGE difference between 'fear' and reasonable forward thinking. It is reasonable to QUESTION how well maintained records will be down the road, into the future, as well as what could happen if those records are corrupted for some reason.

Your OPINION may be that Shelby has a right to take over the SAAC name, but thats all it is, an OPINION.

Amy,your point IS well taken however, a return phone call, a nice letter from SAAC would have gone a LONG way to resolve this crisis before it became one.

 

+1 Well said!

I'd make a terrible collector because I would not be able to resist enjoying them.

Back in the 70s I met this fellow who invested (professionally) in fine French wines. He had a real talent for being able to taste a 1 year old wine, when it could be bought for $3-4/btl, and know it would be a $20-25 btl in a few years, while similar wines would have barely doubled, because it would eventually be considered a truly great wine. He had a huge temp/humidity controlled wine cellar that accommodated over 15,000 bottles.

Based on his insight, I bought half-cases of some wines that eventually became classics -- ones that today fetch $375-2,000/bottle? So I made a killing, right?

Nope. When such a wine is five years old it's greatness starts to become apparent -- but it MUST be tasted to know that. Another bottle must be shared with friends along the way. A few years later its progress MUST be validated (the suspense will kill you if you don't <lol>). You get the picture.

Well, by the time 20-25 years goes by when these fine vintages of premier Chateaus (like Rothchild, Giscours, La Tour, Palmer, etc.) are getting truly exquisite, you don't have any left!

So I ask you, did I get my money's worth by actually enjoying the fruits of my 'investments' as opposed to being afraid to use them up? I think so.

In truth, my friend the big-time wine investor would agree. Since he could afford to buy 25-100 cases of each vintage, he not only got a slightly better price, but could afford to 'waste' a half-case to guage progress of each vintage over the years. Such a problem! ;-)

So, maybe anyone who feels they're 'wasting' vintage Shelbys by driving the wheels off them ought to either be wealthy enough to own more than one of each marque <lol> or not drive them at all ... or...

Me, I drove the wheels off mine to the tune of nearly 30,000 miles/year and sold it after a few years. Was I stupid for driving it so much. I don't think so. Did I waste it? I really don't think so. Was I stupid in selling it? Well, ahem, sometimes I do think I should have kept it, but not so muich because of what it would be worth today -- but because I missed, and still miss, driving it!

If I hadn't driven it --tucked away my beautiful baby and then sold it today in pristine condition for a great 'paper-profit' I'd be richer in dollars and poorer in my heart -- my life experience ...that a price just can't be put on. Either way, I'd still be without it now!

On thanksgiving while picking thru the humble wine selection I now have in the basement, I found two little jewels I thought were long gone -- 60s grand cru La Fête Rothchild. I looked them up online: 900 Euros! So what did I do? Of course we opened one for Thanksgiving dinner with our friends.

The other? It'll be lucky to make it into 2008 -- there's certainly going to be a dinner in the not-too-distant future we'll invariably cook-up specially for it! ;-)

Like fine wines, fine cars are meant to be enjoyed, imo... Everyone's different, but for me the 'crime' would be NOT enjoying them to the fullest! And when it's used up? Rejoice in all it gave you (and keep in touch with who you sold it too )

I did say I'd make a terrible collector!

 

[Excaliber;28726]This I address to the body, not to specifically to Amy, for whom I have great respect.
>> The respect is mutual

If some corporation tried to take over the name of my business, I'd pick up the phone all right, and call my lawyer FIRST! Just because your being sued by someone doesn't make them right, thats why we have courts.

>>Neil registered SAAC because it stands for shelby American automobile club. That is what it represents, it would confuse the market. He had a right to register it you can disagree, this one will be decided elsewhere. They also signed a license referencing Shelby American Automobiles Club.

One more thing, there is HUGE difference between 'fear' and reasonable forward thinking. It is reasonable to QUESTION how well maintained records will be down the road, into the future, as well as what could happen if those records are corrupted for some reason.

>> true, but discusing the issue without knowing if Shelby has a plan or not and just assuming there would be an issue, is fear spreading. If Dave knew for sure that Carroll didnt have a plan, or if someone could prove there wasn't a plan, then that would be correct, to assume and speculate that the ecomomy and gas prices will affect his support is fear spreading. Since the economy is bad and gas is bad, so he is saying this is bad as well. It is an opinion, not based on fact

Your OPINION may be that Shelby has a right to take over the SAAC name, but thats all it is, an OPINION.
>> Again, I am not arguing, this will be decided elsewhere, opinions dont matter here on this.

Amy,your point IS well taken however, a return phone call, a nice letter from SAAC would have gone a LONG way to resolve this crisis before it became one.

>> this is actually the real issue, why no response why once they realized that John's letter was correct, why was there no response. My opinion,....... they felt they didn't need to adhere to the license they signed. They felt they didn't need too and probably thought all the calls and letters would just stop and Carroll wouldn't press it. They guessed wrong, they also never address that point in any of their public responses. But that is just my opinion


Amy​

 

Seems to me it would have been easier (originally) for Shelby to call Kopec on this issue and arrange a meeting of some sort. After SAAC received the letter from the attorneys, than a call directly to CS would probably fall on deaf ears (or is that still open). On CS input to SAAC, he's in the car building business (among other things), doubt he would want Kopec's, Eber's or Pardee's input on building his new cars. Wasn't SAAC the original "brand builder"? No problem with two clubs, just the hot heads running them, going at it.

 

Amy,
I was constructive and kind in my post. You and I have spoken about my concerns and if I state them on this forum, you criticize. You have heard them before directly from me and so has Carroll. You can cloud the situation but you are only attacking me because of your own fears. I am not SAAC but as a non compensated volunteer for 24 years to Carrol, his creations and deserve to be heard.
Your side bar has nothing to do with me so direct it to the people it means something to.
If you are trying to alienate me and others who have been also devoted, that is your choice but not good for your cause. The loyalists deserve better.
When an old friend hears from his friend's lawyer, the intent is very clear. SAAC did nothing but devote 30 plus years to Carrol. Either he is out of touch and getting bad advise or he has some real issues. I hope he sees the light. After 40 plus years of devotion, I would be the first person to offer to assist him back on the pedestal.
Dave

 

SAAC exits ONLY at the pleasure of Shelby -- literally and legally. He licensed the use of his marques to them for the express purpose of helping his brands succeed and under an anually-renewable agreement at Shelby's option and discretion, revocable by either party on 60 days written notice.

I am not privy to all the facts, but if SAAC has in fact not been complying with the agreement's reporting/other terms for many years, I too would want to terminate the agreement as soon as I felt I could better serve existing customers effectively and in a way that would also embrace new customers -- even tho I can terminate the agreement without any such rationale.

Shelby clearly now feels that time has come. he owes SAAC no explanation, though he did provide one -- in writing.

While lawyers can make mountains out of most any molehill, if SAAC has not been in compliance for years (and I have no reason to doubt Shelby's letter), Shelby had little choice, imo, but to withdraw the licensing under the agreement and procede to make other arrangements. To do otherwise would be to neglect and do damage to vital corporate assets -- Shelby trademarks -- and would be fiundamentally irresponsible, imo.

The specific SAAC trademark, since marks can be registered and/or usage-only based, is a matter for the courts. Marks are also scope-specific. For example, it would be possible (not suggesting, just explaining) for SAAC to own SAAC for prior-to-specific-date and Shelby to own SAAC for post-specific-date.

"SAAC" trademark issues aside for a moment, SAAC's obligations to have complied rigorously and continuously with the agreement over the years, annually, and according to ALL the provisions of the agreement, is a black and white issue ...including it's summary termination now effected by Shelby, which apparently requires no reason or other justification under the terms of the agreement.

If those terms were unacceptable to SAAC's principles, they should have exercised that same clause under the agrement and terminated their responsibilities. So, defacto, they chose to be bound by the agreement and chose to not comply (to whatever extent as alleged) now resulting in termination of their [60-days revocable] use of Shelby Intellectual Property.

The rights of the SAAC mark usage is a matter for the courts; there also seems to be a distinction in pre- and post-January 1, 1996 records. The rest seems fairly cut and dried, imho.

 

I call BS. You are driving an agenda.

Hi Amy.

That fact that a resolution to the conflict at hand could be so simple and so inexpensive to both parties...

..yet you keep putting the same spin on it, says that there is more than what is being spoken about in public going on.

...just my opinion. ..without an agenda...like some folks.