Value of original 65 shelby steel wheels

The problem is: we have no definitive evidence or proof at this time that cars 001-113 ever had 15x5.5" KH steel wheels.

How have we gotten to this presumptive state, thus far, without any documentation or any survivor car to support such a presumption?

There may or may not have been 15x5.5" steel wheel 1965 GT-350s...we just at this time have no verifiable proof.

This is not any sort of territorial dispute. All of the people involved are of the highest <read> highest calibre who have done all of us masterful work for many years.

Here is what some have shared with me:

SAAC has records of a Shelby-American purchase of 500 15x6" KH steel wheels;

Howard Pardee has a single detached wheel from SFM5S195 which is a 15x5.5";

Publication of 15x5.5" wheels on cars prior to 217xxx has been cited;

Mark Hovander has a colleague who dismantled SFM5S190 the wheels being 15x5.5".


The oft quoted distinction of VIN 217xxx was a calculated deductive exercise with the given components that:

a) 500 wheels were 100 'ship-sets' of wheels,and;
b) that approx 50% of the cars were steel wheel equipped .

So therefor the arithmetical break, working back from 562 1965 GT-350s, was at VIN batch 217xxx. This per the above gentlemen.

This reasoning switched to induction being that it then was surmised that all of those cars not covered by the aforementioned deductive prospective mathematics were therefore 15x5.5" equipped cars because of the single dismounted wheel said to be off of (and perhaps indeed off of) SFM5S195 and the wheels off of the former SFM5S190 (likewise perhaps so).

With the coming forth of SFM5S178 equipped with 15x6" it would mean that a seemingly aberrant anomaly exists between SFM5S178 and SFM5S195 (?).

This may well be the case,I,for one,do not know. Still, at this time,no defintitive documentary evidence or extant survivor of a 15x5.5" KH steel wheel car has shown. Let's hope more follows.

Best

 

I believe that the lower VIN # is more likely correct for the cut off.
When doing the math, did they take the R models out of the equation?

Mike

 

What cut off ?

This is the void of this situation. SAAC as of yesterday was quite forthcoming and helpful in supplying the aforementioned information.
They have a single dismounted wheel from a car which before and after had 15x6" wheels and a purchase order for 15x6" wheels.

They disclosed no documentary information linking Shelby-American to any 15x5.5" wheels. Nor at this time have they asserted that to their knowledge any 15x5.5" GT-350s exist on any serial number.

I am very impressed and appreciative of both the candor and responsiveness of both Howard Pardee and Mark Hovander on this (I am not even a SAAC member), top notch.

Let's hope more comes out on this and perhaps an antecedent can be provided which can enable all of us to sustantiate the authenticity of our cars, but as of now no authenticated 15x5.5" KH steel wheel cars.

 

According to the 65 spec in the 97 Registry the wheel size
is specified to be 5.5" but my owners manual specifies Steel Wheel
15x6.0". My April-May 1965 Parts List don't specify the steel wheel
except the part number, no prices or supplier. looks like the information was removed. Also, were these wheels mounted by Ford in San Jose
or by Shelby. The order for 500 6.0" wheels speaks for Shelby
but were all supplied by Shelby. My car 5S275 came with Cragars
but I must confess I love those 6.0" steel wheels.
Texas Swede

 

The steel wheels were on the cars when they left San Jose', they were also an option on the standard Mustang.
My invoice shows it did not have the optional wheels - so what did it have?

Mike

 

Wheels were already on the cars when they left Ford.

Optional wheels = Cragars
No optional wheels = steel wheels

The same held true for 67 Shelbys
Optional wheels = Magstars or 10 spokes (depending on the date of build)
No optional wheels = Steel wheels with hupcaps

Kenny

 

Mark Hovander and Howard Pardee (hopefully they'll chime in) have related to me that the Blue Dot tires on steel wheels were mounted by FoMoCo.

Once at Shelby American the cars with Cragers had the Blue Dots transmounted onto the Cragers, which begs the 'All-Time' question (which Mark brought up)...what became of the 1000++ original KH steel wheels?? (let's man our shovels and head to Venice!)

Howard made further mention that some percentage of originally mounted Blue Dots had incurred sidewall deterioration and had to be replaced by Shelby American.

 

Likely went to the dump for scrap. Things like intakes, carbs, exhaust manifolds sold locally and through a few ads they ran. Not much call (resale value) in the wheels.

IF they had been 14" they might have gone to Cragar to make the then popular Chrome reverse wheels

 

My question was rhetorical - I know #17 came with steel's
Ken is correct in his post as well.

Why there is a question as to what size is not mine.
The 15 x 6's were not San Jose production line items at that time
(unless someone has definitive proof?)

Mike

 

Mike

You're right, the wheels weren't production items nor were the Blue Dots. Perhaps,seemingly, they were pre-ordered and fitted in San Jose. This Howard has told me via correspondence.

A daunting thought is that 562 '65s (give or take), 252 '66 carryovers, equals to north of 4000 wheels! For the sake of a beer, if 50% of '65s had steels that's only 1300 plus or minus.

Howard did not specify the date of the paperwork referencing the 500 15x6s, but whatever date it is only one-eighth of the theorhetical gross set.

The 15x5.5" were not production wheels either. To the Lightweight 427 Galaxy guys they are as precious as our 15x6's. Although I am not a 427 Galaxy guy I do know they are way way way rarer than 1965 GT-350s and only produced in 1963 and 1964. Any Galaxy guys out here? I found out about this when I parked next to one at a Ford Power car show years back whence I thought he had our wheels and he thought I had theirs!

This alone would make 15.5.5' KH wheels a 'steal' at 450 each, I would think they are a much rarer wheel. There is still alot we don't know.

Best

 

Could it be the GT350 vins were not produce in sequence with the Ford vins? In other words could 5s195 have an earlier Ford Vin than 5s178? When a load of Mustangs were park on the LA facility I doubt that they where in sequence. Were they assigned GT350 vins on the lot or as they were brought into the assembly line? Also the '65 GT350 press release specification pages (dated 6/7/65) also indicates 15x6 steel wheels.

RussT

 

Attached are photos of an original 15x 5-1/2" KH steel wheel from SFM501X. It was removed around 1969 and has been sitting on a shelf in an enclosed garage until these photos. NOTE: the wheel was painted guardsman blue in the late '60s when the use of the then new polyglas tires were too wide for the black spire tire cover to fit correctly. We thought it looked better to see a blue wheel through the rear glass. It matched the blue strips better. I have chipped off some of the blue to show the grey under it.

 

Yes looks exactly like the rims used for the solid center wheels (believe these can be modified to look exactly like the 65 wheels if you can find them)

Might start seeing some reproductions out there

Top one is even the same date

 

One of the reasons I have an interest in this topic is the unfortunate situation we got into 30 years ago regarding the 'Argent Station Wagon Wheels'. For those who are fortunate enough to be too young to have been at say SAAC III, our 65 GT-350 community had gotten into a situation wherein people with great source credibility attested that 65 GT-350s came with argent station wagon wheels. This was the incipient period in which many 65 GT-350s (no longer competitive) were transitioning from the autocrossers and hot rodders to owners who were more drawn to the 'pedigree' and inherent qualities of the 1965 Shelby Americana experience. Through repetition this ended being in published documents which lent a substantial air of legitimacy, dismounted 'originals' showed up, and owners were equipping their GT-350s as such. A considerable period of time, a lot of wasted money and effort and some bruised feelings occurred before it became obvious that no direct linkage could be established. There is an understandable thirst for these since so many were discarded, but without the standards of redaction and/or peer review, in all contexts of originality, we've seen were we can go.

 

Those wheels still show up for sale and on cars. To be honest they were prevalent enough for me to take another look at them at one point. Part of the issue is that there was not allot of attention to the plain wheels and no real good picture of this (and other details) when the cars were new.

We are left with attempting to do the best we can reconstructing the history from the remains

But that is what makes it fun.

 

The more I read this post, the more confused I get. I own a '66 holdover car and I would like to gain some clarity. Since I have owned my car for only 12 years, I don't have enough knowledge to insure all the small details are "correct", but I'm trying my best to keep the the car "original". My car came with steel wheels, but since I'm the sixth owner, I'm not sure now if my wheels are correct.

What I have gotten from this post is:
1. It is questionable that 15" X 5 1/2" wheels were installed on all but the very earliest GT350's.
2. That 15" X 6" station wagon wheels were not installed on GT350's.

With the above information, my questions are: what are the correct wheels, what do they look like and is there documentation to back this up? HELP! Thanks for all the information to this point, Russ

 

Russ, just as a comment. I really tend to look towards original cars for details (multiple ones with the same one rather than "documents" by themselves (just my thing)

Way too many examples of documentation found that did not match what the factory/workers did.

It is great when we have details in both documentation AND on original cars that match.

Here are a couple of pictures (of course) Take notice of the small circular cutouts (sharp edge not bent/folded/stamped) in four locations where the center meets the rim.

Basically it appears IMHO that the solid centers (used on a couple of other cars those years) were modified by the maker to make the wheels. Not really sure of the benefit... just what I've seen


Here is some of the pictures of this wheel I have

 

Jeff - great pix, I have a bunch like that as well.
What dealership is that at?

I have asked several very knowledgeable owners to respond to this question.
Here is the first one.

To: colin@colinsclassicauto.com
Subject: Web Inquiry



What size are the rims on SFM 5s301?

They look like the 15 by 5.5's

if they are, how certain are you that they are the original steel wheels?



Mike,



They are 5.5’s. 100% certain they are original to the car, no question. Have pictures of the car from new with the same wheels on it always.



I got your email, do not have any of the parts you seek other than a set of KH’s but I’m keeping those for 5S249!



Thanks,

Colin

Go to his website to see some incredible cars!

Mike

 

The origin of these 15 x 5 1/2" steel wheels from Ford, may be related to the short lived and very rare 15" wheel option with Firestone 500 tires available on 1964 1/2" HP mustang coups. They were pictured in (I believe) a Sept. 1964 Car Life magazine test of a 289HP mustang.

Snakepit is correct about looking at what was actually produced vs. documentation that may or may not be complete or relevant.

 

Just adding to the discussion we do (don't think it was mentioned before... if it was - sorry) the Add delete sheets for a group of 66 GT350's built (at Shelby 9-17 believe this was the first true 66 order) show

"6393075 ADDITION OF (5) 15 X 6.00 WHEELS
ITEMS TO BE OMITTED
5 C4GA-1007-A1 RPO WEHHL ASSY 14 X 5.00 (5 HOLE)

6393075 ITEMS TO BE INSTALLED
5 C5ZX-1007-A 23-50 WHEELS ASSY 15 X 6.00 (5 HOLE)

NOTE: OUTSIDE OF WHEEL TO BE PAINTED H-780-95176 SILVER
DUPONT BY VEHICLE ASSY PLANT"


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Here are a few pictures of the solid wheels I think could be modified to reproduce the originals. Now looking closer... there seems to be some small details that would give it away.

Close ... but

Rims appear to be the same






Difference is the depth of the circular cutouts in the center hub and the raised areas near the lug area



Have seen owners use the solids on the 64 K codes with 15's before at shows. The issue/problem we noticed at that time was that the hole in the center did no match the diameter of the rotor/drum snout. Will have to measure or slap one (solid wheel) on a car but this may be a secondary issue