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Concours show your Shelby? Let's hear it

Discussion in 'Shelby History and Miscellaneous Topics' started by roddster, Mar 31, 2005.

  1. Mar 31, 2005 #1
    roddster

    roddster Well-Known Member

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    This is a little related to the running post I did about LeMans stripes. Seems some folks also want to talk about Concours shows so here goes. As a reminder, to those who have stated "dealer installed". Well, go enter a concours event, you are going to need the original slip from the original dealer stating the cost charger for it, or other documentation. Otherwise it's "points off"

    I Concours show my car just because I don't think some folks at shows know what is correct or not. They vote for their favorite color, or their friends car.
    My 67 GT350 was the 3rd place car back at SAAC 15 by about 10 points, and, even after stripping the entire bottom, and painting it the correct way, was a "Did-not-place" at the SAAC convention at Indy (you should see my 10 page protest letter I sent in to SAAC.)
    Then SAAC changed things into the different divisions that is used today. I like the new system, it's fair, leaves room even for unrestored survivor cars.
    And, if you don't have a Thoroughbred restoration, you still have the Div II which allows re-pop parts, which on my car is pretty few, just being parts that wear out. And I still drive my car.
    Back at SAAC 15, they spent about 45 minutes looking the car over
    At Indy, 2 hours 45 minutes, about the same at SAAC 29. The judges are very thorough. The bottom better be as nice as the top side.
    You better have things documented, and even that might not matter. You'll find out that some re-pop parts are better than others, and then you better have the others. Listen and take notes, often the judges are helpful.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2009
    roddster, Mar 31, 2005
    roddster, Mar 31, 2005
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  2. Mar 31, 2005 #2
    Michael

    Michael Well-Known Member

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    Re: Why I hate LeMans stripes

    Good point and that is why I would never participate in a concourse event because I like driving my cars to much to worry about points.
     
    Michael, Mar 31, 2005
    Michael, Mar 31, 2005
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  3. Apr 17, 2005 #3
    shelbyguy

    shelbyguy Well-Known Member

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    Re: Why I hate LeMans stripes

    I am restoring a '67 GT350 # 2736 - Nightmist Blue - Magstar car.
    I am the third owner. It did NOT have Lemans Stripes but I am adding them to the car. It is going to If I can complete it in time to SAAC 30 for Concours competition. No points off in Division II. If it was an option, you can have it on the car. The Division I is pretty strict. It is like MCA Survivor Class. No, REPO parts at all. My car is using mostly restored parts and NOS parts and could do well in that class but, I think it a bit over the top. Don't get me wrong. I get pretty fussy about my restorations. However, my paint is going to be as slick as a baby's behind and the fiberglass has been fit to the car. I was sure to leave the original mat fiberglass on the underside alone as crude as it is.

    [​IMG]
    This is the care BEFORE I started ripping it apart. It did have magstars on it. I put paint rims on in this photo. Then made a photo journal of the car and took it apart. It is coming off the rotisserie in 2 weeks from the paint shop...

    I am curious. Have any of you reading this had a car in a concours judging competition? I have. It is not for the faint of heart! 4 guys crawled my '67 GT500 #1616 for 2 1/2 hours at SAAC 27. Looking at every bolt. I also had my 1966 GT350H # 1882 there (Yes, original Black with Gold stripes car)
    They crawl those cars!

    [​IMG]

    This is at a Mustang Car Show - Took 1st class & Best of Show

    [​IMG]
    Here it is at SAAC 27 getting the scrutiny of 4 judges...

    I really love Lemans stripes and they really set the cars off nicely.
    I did own 1968 GT500 # 1353 - Original gold car, no stripes. I purchased it restored with Red paint & Lemans Stripes. (Stripes done in Wimbledon White). It was a really nice car and the Lemans stripes looked great!
    [​IMG]

    As a note. Lemans stripes ARE not 10" wide all of the way...
    Here is the specs for all 65-68 Lemans stripes.
    Shelby Lemans Stripes SPECS

    :thumbsup: to Lemans Stripes.

    The Great thing is when I sell a car off. The next guy can do whatever he wants to the car! For the record, If I owned an un-restored Shelby with out stripes. It would stay that way. BUT, If I have to spend THOUSANDS on a car, like 30-40K on a Full resto. You should do it how YOU want it. Lemans stripes will NOT discount your restored car at all. Barrett Jackson has proven wrong paint, different motor cars bring 200+K

    Just my two cents worth...
     
    shelbyguy, Apr 17, 2005
    shelbyguy, Apr 17, 2005
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  4. Apr 21, 2005 #4
    rshelby

    rshelby ShelbyForums Admin Staff Member

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    Car Show Question & Answer

    With the winter weather behind us for the most part, I know we have many car shows and events coming up and I realize that I don't know much about them other than walking around and enjoying the cars. I have never entered a car in a show and would like to know more about them before I do. I thought of some questions that I would like to know the answers to and figured they may help out others as well.
    1. What are the different classifications or classes you can enter? (for example, SAAC Classes, MCA Classes - Concours competition, Division I, Division II, Survivor, etc.)
    2. What are the specifics of each class and what does it take to participate in each? and/or What are the judges looking for?
    3. What information do the judges give back to you? Do they have some sort of checklist or something that tells you exactly how your car does or does not measure up?
    Thanks for any help you can provide.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2009
    rshelby, Apr 21, 2005
    rshelby, Apr 21, 2005
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  5. Apr 21, 2005 #5
    roddster

    roddster Well-Known Member

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    Re: Car Show Question & Answer

    From my experience, the MCA's "Thouroughbed" class has the top cars. Always the best. But those don't look like they ever get driven. Maybe some do but not much. And equal to that would be SAAC's "Premier" division.
    SAAC's Division I would be next (no repop parts). Though to do now a days without selling the Ponderosa.
    Believe me, even if to get a SAAC bronze award, you have a nice car.

    What do the judges look for? Exact correctness (MCA/SAAC). I sense that some SAAC year classes are judged harder than others (ah hem). And, I didn't see anyone dare put in an accessory modification in a Div II car although the rules seem for say that would be acceptable.
    The MCA judges (and are often SAAC judges) do look for the paint to have a slight orange peel effect to it somewhere. So, you might get points off with a real expensive all smooth paint job. But the ISCA judges would love that.
    And speaking of the ISCA, they wouldn't know correct if it landed in their front yard. For them, it all better be shiney, top, bottom, everything.
    Some local shows get judged that way also, so you just have to relax, go look at what is in your class, which way too often is to big, and see for yourself if they chose the correct cars to win. Actually, I enjoy talking with other car owners about thier car.
    I think local shows with that 10 year class group is way too big in the 60's class. Often there could be 10-15 entries. But only 2 in the 80's class.
    At most shows you will get your judging sheet. You might need to go ask for it at the end of the show for ISCA and local shows. SAAC likes to mail them to you which is OK. As a car owner, if you are friendly, not at all anal, and seem to not want to tell the judges that you know it's right (when it ain't) they will let you stand there and listen to their notations. You can even ask them to please write out what specifically they are pointing on. Some judges don't want you around, you have to respect that too.
    The MCA judging sheets have specific detail about how things ar supposed to be, look, have. SAAC sheets are similar.
    Local shows/ISCA, not much to learn there, judging sheet wise.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2005
    roddster, Apr 21, 2005
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  6. Apr 23, 2005 #6
    Seaweed

    Seaweed Well-Known Member

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    Howdy-If a car of the 60's has been painted & clear coated, is that consided customizing ??--S.
     
    Seaweed, Apr 23, 2005
    Seaweed, Apr 23, 2005
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  7. Apr 26, 2005 #7
    roddster

    roddster Well-Known Member

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    If, it is painted the correct shade of the original color, some judges will give you a pass. However, a color change is points off. And, some judges also look for the correct amount of orange peel. If none is found, it's points off.
     
    roddster, Apr 26, 2005
    roddster, Apr 26, 2005
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  8. Apr 28, 2005 #8
    289Cobra

    289Cobra Active Member

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    This is exactly why I would never want to have a concours car. If I am going to spend all that money restoring it, why would I want to try to emulate orange peel in my paint? I personally want my car to be nicer than it came off the showroom floor, not with "factory flaws". Different strokes I guess.
     
    289Cobra, Apr 28, 2005
    289Cobra, Apr 28, 2005
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  9. Apr 28, 2005 #9
    roddster

    roddster Well-Known Member

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    Well, just like I originally stated, you need to satisfy 4 (or so) different types of judging criteria. Absolutley correct, the it's restored so it beter be all shiney, The differing national judges whether they beSAAC, or MCA, andthe local guys,
     
    roddster, Apr 28, 2005
    roddster, Apr 28, 2005
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  10. Apr 28, 2005 #10
    Michael

    Michael Well-Known Member

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    I get my enjoyment from diving the cars and taking them to the local street meet or local car show. It is thrilling we some young person comes up and has never seen one or someone else will see it and start remembering the past. To me life is too short to worry about if the car has the correct oil filter or not. Plus, I don't think even the concourse judges can all agree on what is correct so why would I let them tell me I don't have enough orange peal. By the way, my 68 just finished restoration and it has no orange peal, not even on the lemans strips. If it did, they would be repainting it. Just my opinion.
     
    Michael, Apr 28, 2005
    Michael, Apr 28, 2005
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  11. Apr 29, 2005 #11
    doc

    doc Well-Known Member

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    I too have been down this road. As a MCA Judge and assisting in a couple of SAAC meets, it got to the point that perfection was measured by the size of your wallet and the extent you where willing to go to get Top Dog Honors. I too once chased the Holy Grail with a "Concourse Trailered" GT-350 and can recall spending countless hours, money and research trying to determine what is and what was not correct for my car. In the end, it didn't matter a HOOT !! I will stand-up in front any SAAC or MCA Gold Card Judge and tell them the same thing. Nobody knows to the nth detail every part, piece, chalk mark or sticker tag associated with these cars when they left the factory. True there are standard things that are common to all but remember "Quality was not Job 1" at Shelby during the 60's. There aren't any factory untouched models sitting in some time capsule in Dearborn or Musuem and doubtful if any unrestored cars are wearing 100% of their original parts. So there the story is revealed. Enjoy driving the car that is why you really own one Right? Who cares about trophies and plastic? If you need some let me know, I have a whole gargae full you can have.

    Doc
     
    doc, Apr 29, 2005
    doc, Apr 29, 2005
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  12. Apr 29, 2005 #12
    289Cobra

    289Cobra Active Member

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    Doc:
    And even if there were a bunch of unrestored, untouched originals sitting around, I bet we'd find that no two cars were exactly alike, and that there weren't too many "standard practices" that were followed to the nth degree. I say build the car as you want, for you to enjoy. I agree with what somebody else said earlier: the compliments that are given by the casual enthusiast or young kid mean far more to me than a trophy or "Gold" certification.
     
    289Cobra, Apr 29, 2005
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  13. May 4, 2005 #13
    doc

    doc Well-Known Member

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    Hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments on Concours Restorations. They do have they place in the hobby and I for one would not want to discourage anyone pursuing this venue. The issue brings back more frustration for me in the hobby than joy especially when the bar isn't consistent and the rules change every year in terms of What Is and What Isn't correct. Somehow going to Conventions and Shows lost their allure for me because I spent more time trying to earn or not lose points in car judging that I lost site on why I love the car in the first place. It was because it was a Shelby and dog gone it, it was meant to be driven. So I stopped thinking about brackets, hoses and clamps and instead concentrated on nice country drives, thumbs up on the highway and seeing my son excited about riding in this thing rather than looking at it between a pair of ropes. I have not entered or competed with my Shelbys since 1996. My 67 has 39722 original miles and probably would not place by today's standards even after retiring as MCA Grand National Trailered Champion. Don't lose any sleep over it and I refused to do anything to it but drive it and guess what, it is 98% NOS including the E70-15 tires. How's that for you ?? I respect those who pursue perfection and if it brings you joy so much the better. Remember what I talked about and when you decide to enjoy the car as it was meant to be enjoyed; have yourself a blast. You suddenly realize what a awesome machine they really are to drive.

    Thanks

    Doc
     
    doc, May 4, 2005
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  14. May 4, 2005 #14
    dan

    dan Active Member

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    i get just as much enjoyment just looking at my cars part of didnt buy them to drive them and part of me wants to drive it .. i was at a friends house where my car is at and we were in the garage for 2 hours just looking , just like that 2 hours of my life went by pretty sad to some but to me hell i had a great time .i wish i had a room off the house where i could park my cars and sit and watch tv with my cars thats how sick i am i eat sleep and drink cars there is a tree painted in one of the rooms where im staying until my house is built the owners painted a tree on the wall i woke up at 3 in the morning and could see the tree and was thinking to myself while looking at the tree who hung a set of headers on the wall lol lol lol the branch looked just like headers i spent the rest of the morning laughing about it. drive it dont drive it. who cares rusty not rusty who cares.concours or not who cares its about the way you decide to enjoy the car and share with some one else
     
    dan, May 4, 2005
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  15. May 7, 2005 #15
    Magstar

    Magstar Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree more Doc. I videoed the judges at a SAAC convention judging my 68 it is hilarious to watch 4 grown men argue about what brand name should be on your headlight.Then we walked over to the track and we realized these guys were having way more fun than the guys with the car dusters. Don't get me wrong I love to see a perfect car but I kind of feel sorry for the guys that have them they kind of become more of a caretaker than an owner.There is nothing like putting a big block threw the gears on a Sunday afternoon.
     
    Magstar, May 7, 2005
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  16. May 18, 2005 #16
    cobra427

    cobra427 Well-Known Member

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    My Shelbys aren't concours show cars, the 69 is a driver/local car show car, the 68 is still waiting on me to put it back togather. Well when you have concours shows, you have to have standards by which you judge cars. I remenber when Saac was trying to come up with a set of rules way back. The problem is the rules kept changing and getting updated once Saac started to find out more about the cars. I have talked to people who worked on the Shelby assembly line, it was a 9 to 5 job, and if you ran out of a part, you made the car anyway. These cars were not built as show cars, (I have a 84 GT350 Annv. in the garage with 12,000 miles on it and all original and it would not win a concours show). I know concours cars have there place but I'll keep mine close to original and drive it.
     
    cobra427, May 18, 2005
    cobra427, May 18, 2005
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  17. May 24, 2005 #17
    LateGT500

    LateGT500 Member

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    Hey Rod,
    Good posting on judging. You might want to let everyone know how much of a good time we had at this years Spring Fling. By the way I will send you the correct plated trunk screw when they arrive from the plater :)
     
    LateGT500, May 24, 2005
    LateGT500, May 24, 2005
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  18. May 24, 2005 #18
    rshelby

    rshelby ShelbyForums Admin Staff Member

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    Gary, are you speaking of the 12 "1966" GT350 convertibles Carroll made in the early 80's? I thought it was 1982? Well, it was early '80's anyway.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2006
    rshelby, May 24, 2005
    rshelby, May 24, 2005
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