No gas getting to carb.

s2ms · Dec 17, 2008

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

GCRIV said: ↑

It recently has started idling very very high once it gets warmed up. Doesn't that also point twords some kind of vacuum leak?
Click to expand...

Yep, that's sure a possibility, Doug's suggestion is a good one. Know anyone with an extra carb you can borrow just to check it out?

GCRIV · Dec 17, 2008

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

Well, I'll have to get a can of parts cleaner, and see what that does. In the mean time, we have a mechanic at work who is a mustang guy. He offered to loan me a carb, I just hate to have him rip off his carb. I guess that would be better than buying a new one, and that not being the problem.

Doug_GT350 · Jan 19, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

What was the outcome of this? Just for the record. Is it running okay now?

GCRIV · Jan 20, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

No, afraid not. I saw your post, and thought I would start it up just for the heck of it. It will sit there and idle fine, but as it warms up, the rpm's go up quite a bit. I'm wondering if I've got some kind of vacuum leak, but I've checked my hoses, and the seal around my carb, and I can't seem to come up with anything. Anyhow, once the rpm's get up, it starts to run out of fuel in the fuel filter. I suppose I've run out of hair to pull out, and money to go chasing after problems and solutions I'm not sure will work. Thanks for asking.

s2ms · Jan 21, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

Did you get a chance to try another carb?

GCRIV · Jan 21, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

No, never got ahold of another carb to try.

tommyleea · Jan 21, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

GCRIV said: ↑

No, afraid not. I saw your post, and thought I would start it up just for the heck of it. It will sit there and idle fine, but as it warms up, the rpm's go up quite a bit. I'm wondering if I've got some kind of vacuum leak, but I've checked my hoses, and the seal around my carb, and I can't seem to come up with anything. Anyhow, once the rpm's get up, it starts to run out of fuel in the fuel filter. I suppose I've run out of hair to pull out, and money to go chasing after problems and solutions I'm not sure will work. Thanks for asking.
Click to expand...

Remove the fuel filter from the system. You can run without the filter for troubleshooting purposes. Not sure of the carb design, but it sounds like you might have a sticking float. Can you remove the top of your carb? If so, take the top off the carb, and crank it up to monitor the fuel in the carb. Also, I would still use the small gas can for my fuel supply. Cheers.

TommyJ

GCRIV · Jan 21, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

You know, I wondered about a stuck float, but wouldn't that make it flood?

tommyleea · Jan 21, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

GCRIV said: ↑

You know, I wondered about a stuck float, but wouldn't that make it flood?
Click to expand...

If the float sticks down yes. If it sticks up then no. My experience was with an Autolite carb that has dual floats connected together in a u shape. They would rub the side of the carb in the up position. Car ran great until the bowl ran out of fuel. If you hit a bump, the float would drop back down and everything was fine. This problem plagued me for several months. I would start the car up, and sit and time how long before it quit. I had fuel to the carb, and when it ran, it ran great. I finally removed the top of the carb and watched it in operation. That is when I noticed the float sticking. Not sure if you can remove the top of your carb or not. Also, make sure you don't have a pinhole in your fuel line. That one will drive you crazy also.

TommyJ

GCRIV · Jan 22, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

Many thanks. I'm not familiar with how to rebuild them. I don't know if I want to take that on or not. I have a friend at work with an old mustang, and a while back he offered to let me try his carb. Maybe I'll hit him up again and see what he thinks. Any idea about my potential vacuum problem? I have a line that runs to my distributor, and a plug at the front of the carb. If I remember, those are my only two lines. When I plug each one of those openings with my thumb, there doesn't seem to be any difference. To me that says that there aren't any leaks with my hose. I also took a can of carb cleaner and sprayed it all around where the carb mounts to the manifold. I saw no bubbles, and couldn't notice any difference in the idle. Got me perplexed. :-(

tommyleea · Jan 22, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

GCRIV said: ↑

Many thanks. I'm not familiar with how to rebuild them. I don't know if I want to take that on or not. I have a friend at work with an old mustang, and a while back he offered to let me try his carb. Maybe I'll hit him up again and see what he thinks. Any idea about my potential vacuum problem? I have a line that runs to my distributor, and a plug at the front of the carb. If I remember, those are my only two lines. When I plug each one of those openings with my thumb, there doesn't seem to be any difference. To me that says that there aren't any leaks with my hose. I also took a can of carb cleaner and sprayed it all around where the carb mounts to the manifold. I saw no bubbles, and couldn't notice any difference in the idle. Got me perplexed. :-(
Click to expand...

What kind of choke do you have, manual or electric? Does the high idle kick down with a tap of the accelerator? Do you have a metal line from the carb to the distributor?

Mike Christie · Jan 23, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

GCRIV said: ↑

Many thanks. I'm not familiar with how to rebuild them. I don't know if I want to take that on or not. I have a friend at work with an old mustang, and a while back he offered to let me try his carb. Maybe I'll hit him up again and see what he thinks. Any idea about my potential vacuum problem? I have a line that runs to my distributor, and a plug at the front of the carb. If I remember, those are my only two lines. When I plug each one of those openings with my thumb, there doesn't seem to be any difference. To me that says that there aren't any leaks with my hose. I also took a can of carb cleaner and sprayed it all around where the carb mounts to the manifold. I saw no bubbles, and couldn't notice any difference in the idle. Got me perplexed. :-(
Click to expand...

GCRIV, in reference to using the carb cleaner. You probably will not see any bubbles when trying to detect a carb/intake manifold gasket leak. Your engine would be sucking air rather than expelling it. The bubbles would come from air trying to escape, like when you get a flat tire. In this case the engine is sucking air from the least path of resistance, the carb, so if anything you would probably see a rapid dissolving of the carb cleaner in the immediate area of the leak.
As for possible vacuum leak, this would be a good time to invest in a simple vacuum gauge. $10-20 at any auto parts store. Take a reading at both ports at the carb at idle and off idle, also check intake manifold vacuum and record those numbers for reference. Post the inch lb numbers on this post. It is a simple diagnostic test that will give considerable information.
Hate to see your Mustang just sitting.
Mike

GCRIV · Jan 23, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

Well, it's a manual choke, and the line is a rubber line. As for the vacuum gauge, what do you mean 'at idle', and 'off idle'?

Mike Christie · Jan 25, 2009

GCRIV said: ↑

Well, it's a manual choke, and the line is a rubber line. As for the vacuum gauge, what do you mean 'at idle', and 'off idle'?
Click to expand...

Take a vacuum reading while the engine is running at an idle. Write down that reading, then rev the engine slightly and watch the needle on the vacuum gauge. The vacuum gauge will show in inches. I don't remember how many inches of vacuum you should have, but I would think somewhere in the 17 to 19 inch lbs range. The needle should drop when you rev it and then return to normal reading.

I found this on the internet, hope it is helpful.

Engine Vacuum Leaks
Copyright AA1Car

Have you ever tried to tune an engine only to find it won't idle or run right? Or have you ever been confronted with an engine that just doesn't seem to run right no matter what you've done or replaced? You may be dealing with an engine vacuum leak.

Sometimes a vacuum leak will whistle or hiss and make itself obvious. But oftentimes, a vacuum leak will disguise itself as an ignition or fuel problem that defies diagnosis. Either way, an engine vacuum leak is bad news because allows "unmetered" air to enter the engine and upset the air/fuel ratio.

So how do you know when a vacuum leak is causing a problem? If the engine is experiencing any of the following symptoms, a vacuum leak is probably responsible:

* Too fast an idle speed. If an engine without computerized idle speed control is idling too fast and refuses to come down to a normal idle speed despite your best efforts to back off the carburetor idle speed screw or air bypass adjustment screw (fuel injection), air is getting past the throttle somewhere. Common leak paths include the carburetor and throttle body gaskets, carburetor insulator spacers, intake manifold gaskets, and of course, any of the engine's vacuum fittings, hoses and accessories. It is even possible that leaky O-rings around the fuel injectors are allowing air to leak past the seals. Another overlooked item can be a worn throttle shaft.
* A rough idle or stalling. A performance cam with lots of valve overlap can give an engine a lopping idle, but so can a vacuum leak. A really serious leak can lean the air/fuel mixture out to such an extent that an engine won't idle at all. An EGR valve that is stuck open at idle can have the same effect as a vacuum leak. So too can the wrong PCV valve (one that flows too much air for the application), or a loose PCV hose. The rough idle in these cases is caused by "lean misfire." The fuel mixture is too lean to ignite reliably so it often misfires and fails to ignite at all. Lean misfire will show up as elevated hydrocarbon (HC) readings in the exhaust, enough, in fact, to cause a vehicle to fail an emissions test.
* Hesitation or misfiring when accelerating. This may be due to a vacuum leak, but it can also be caused by a weak or inoperative accelerator pump in a carburetor, dirty injectors, or even ignition problems such as a cracked coil, worn spark plugs or incorrectly gapped plugs.
* An idle mixture that defies adjustment. When setting the idle mixture adjustment screws on a carburetor, the idle speed should start to falter as the adjustment screws are turned in to lean out the mixture. If the screws seem to have little or no effect on idle, you have either got a carburetor problem or a vacuum leak.

The important thing to keep in mind about vacuum leaks is that they have the most noticeable effect at idle. At part and full throttle, there is so much air entering the engine that a little extra air from a vacuum leak has a negligible effect.

TIP: If you have a scan tool, look at the Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) and Long Term Fuel Trim (LTFT) values. Normal range is plus or minus 8. If the numbers are +10 or higher for STFT and LTFT, the engine is running LEAN. If you rev the engine to 1500 to 2000 rpm and hold it for a minute or so, and the STFT value drops back down to a more normal reading, it confirms the engine has a vacuum leak at idle. If the STFT value does not change much, the lean fuel condition is more likely a fuel delivery problem (weak fuel pump, restricted fuel filter, dirty fuel injectors or a leaky fuel pressure regulator) than a vacuum leak.

For more information about using fuel trim to diagnose a lean fuel condition, read this article on Fuel Trim by Wells Manufacturing (PDF file, requires Adobe Acrobat to read).

Before we get into the various techniques of finding and fixing vacuum leaks, let's quickly review vacuum's role in fuel delivery.

WHY INTAKE VACUUM?

Intake vacuum exists in the intake manifold as a result of the pumping action of the engine's pistons and the restriction created by the throttle valve. Were it not for the throttle choking off the flow of air into the engine, there would be little if any vacuum in the intake manifold (like a diesel).

On older carbureted engines, vacuum is needed to pull fuel into the engine. Vacuum siphons fuel through the idle, main metering and power circuits. An engine with a vacuum leak, therefore, will likely be an engine that suffers from the symptoms of lean carburetion such as lean misfire, hesitation, stalling and rough idle. But the same symptoms can also be caused by a clogged catalytic converter or other exhaust restriction, a leaky EGR valve or valve timing problems (all of which reduce intake vacuum).

On most engines, intake vacuum should be steady between 16 and 22 inches Hg (Mercury). A lower reading usually indicates a vacuum leak, or one of the other problems just mentioned. A reading that gradually drops while the engine is idling almost always points to an exhaust restriction. An oscillating vacuum reading usually indicates a leaky valve or badly worn valve guides that leak vacuum.

Fuel injected engines do not require intake vacuum to siphon fuel into the engine because fuel is sprayed directly into the engine under pressure through the injectors. Even so, vacuum leaks can upset the carefully balanced air/fuel ratio by allowing "unmetered" air to enter the engine. The result is the same kind of driveability symptoms as a vacuum leak on a carbureted engine (lean misfire, hesitation when accelerating, rough idle and possibly even stalling). Common leak points include injector O-rings, intake manifold gaskets, idle air control circuit and the throttle shaft.

Fuel injected engines also rely on intake vacuum to regulate the fuel pressure behind the injectors. Fuel delivery cannot be accurately metered unless a fairly constant pressure differential is maintained. So the fuel pressure regulator diaphragm is connected to a source of intake vacuum. Vacuum working against a spring-loaded diaphragm inside the regulator opens a bypass that shunts fuel back to the tank through a return line. This causes the fuel pressure in the injector rail to rise when engine load increases (and vacuum drops). Thus, the regulator uses vacuum to maintain fuel pressure and the correct air/fuel ratio. A vacuum leak changes the equation by causing a drop in vacuum and a corresponding increase in line pressure.

MEASURING VACUUM

Vacuum is measured with a vacuum gauge. Most are calibrated in inches Hg (Mercury), but you may also see some gauges that are also calibrated in inches of H20 (water) or kilopascals (kPa) or even bars. One inch of vacuum measured in inches Hg equals 13.570 inches in H20, 0.4898 psi (pounds per square inch) or 3.377 kPa.

Here's a conversion table you can use to convert units of measurement:
From:
To:

Result:
pressure conversion factors provided by unitconversion.org

ENGINE VACUUM LEAK DETECTION

Okay, now that we have covered what a vacuum leaks do, how do you find components that leak vacuum? One way is to visually inspect all the vacuum hoses and connections. Look for disconnected, loose or cracked hoses, broken fittings, etc. Hey, you might get lucky and find the problem in a few minutes, or you might waste half the day trying to find the mysterious leak. Vacuum leaks are often the elusive needle in a haystack. And if it is not a hose leaking vacuum but something else such as a gasket, worn throttle shaft, injector O-rings, etc., you may never find it using this technique.

A faster technique for finding intake manifold vacuum leaks is to get a bottle of propane and attach a length of rubber hose to the gas valve. Open the valve so you have a steady flow of gas. Then hold the hose near suspected leak points while the engine is idling. If there is a leak, propane will be siphoned in through the leak. The resulting "correction" in the engine's air/fuel ratio should cause a noticeable change in idle speed and/or smoothness (Note: on engines with computerized idle speed control, disconnect the idle speed control motor first).

Aerosol carburetor cleaner can also be used the same way. CAUTION: Solvent is extremely flammable, so do not smoke or use it if there are any sparks in the vicinity (arcing plug wires, for example). Spray the solvent on suspected leak points while the engine is idling. If there is a leak, the solvent will be drawn into the engine and have the same effect as the propane. The idle speed will suddenly change and smooth out.

TIP: If you have a scan tool, look at the Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) value while you are using carb cleaner or propane to check suspected vacuum leak points. If there is a leak and some of the cleaner or propane is sucked in through the leak, you will see a momentary drop in the STFT reading. This confirms you have found a leak (keep checking because there may be multiple leaks!).
USING SMOKE TO FIND ENGINE VACUUM LEAKS

smoke leak detection machine A much safer technique is to use a smoke machine. These machines feed artificial smoke into the intake manifold, The smoke may also be mixed with an ultraviolet dye to make leaks easier to see. You then look for smoke seeping out of hoses, gaskets or cracks in the manifold and/or use a UV light to find the leak. This type of equipment is often needed to find small air leaks in the EVAP (evaporative emissions) control system. Smoke machines can cost $600 to $2000 or more depending on the model and features, so they are primarily for use by professional technicians.

FINDING LEAKS WITH AN EXHAUST ANALYZER

Propane can also be used in conjunction with an exhaust analyzer (do NOT use carburetor cleaner or you may damage your analyzer!). Engine vacuum leaks almost always cause fluctuating HC readings, so an infrared exhaust analyzer can (1) tell you if there is indeed a leak, and (2) where the leak is using the propane procedure.

Two types of vacuum leaks can be diagnosed with an analyzer. The first kind is a general vacuum leak (PCV hose, brake booster, etc.) that leans out the mixture and causes a very low CO reading and only a slightly higher fluctuating HC reading. The O2 reading will also be high. The second kind of vacuum leak is a "point" leak that affects only one or two cylinders (a leaky manifold gasket or a crack or porosity leak in one of the manifold runners). This will be indicated by a normal or low CO reading combined with high fluctuating HC readings. O2 will again be high.

To find a leak, feed propane at suspected leak points until you note an improvement in idle quality and/or a change in the HC/CO/O2 readings. When you have found the leak, the idle should smooth out, HC and O2 should drop and CO rise.

It is important to note that an overly lean idle mixture will also cause a fluctuating HC reading the same as a vacuum leak. To tell one from the other, there is a simple "trick" you can use. Momentarily enrich the idle mixture to 1.5 to 2.0% CO by placing a clean shop rag over the top of the carburetor. If the engine smooths out and HC drops and remains stable, the problem is a lean idle mixture adjustment. If HC still fluctuates, however, the engine is still too lean in one or more cylinders indicating a vacuum leak.

ELECTRONIC VACUUM LEAK DETECTION

If you like gadgets, there are electronic tools designed to detect vacuum leaks. An electronic vacuum leak detector will beep or flash when it detects ultrasonic vibrations that are characteristic of a vacuum leak. These tools use a sensitive microphone to listen for certain noise frequencies. Though extremely sensitive, these tools sometimes react to tiny leaks that are not really causing a problem, or "false" leaks such as the noise created by arcing inside the distributor cap or normal bearing noise in the alternator.

PRESSURE VACUUM LEAK DETECTION TECHNIQUES

Another way to find an elusive vacuum leak is to pressurize the intake manifold with about three lbs. of regulated air. This can be done by attaching a regulator to your shop air hose, then attaching the hose to a vacuum fitting or the PCV valve fitting on the intake manifold, carburetor or throttle body. Do not apply too much pressure or you may create new leaks! With the engine off and air flowing into the manifold, spray soapy water on suspected leaks. If you see bubbles, you have found the leak.

You can also use the opposite technique, which is to apply vacuum with a hand-pump to various vacuum hoses and circuits to see if they hold vacuum. But this technique means tracing the entire circuit to see where it ends, and disconnecting and plugging any parts of the circuit that do not "dead end" against a diaphragm or valve.

ENGINE VACUUM LEAK REPAIRS

Okay, now you have found the leak. Here are some suggestions on how to fix it:

* Leaky vacuum hoses Replace them. If the end of a hose is loose or cracked, cutting it off and sticking it back on may temporarily eliminate the leak. But if the hose is rotten or age hardened, it needs to be replaced. Shortening hoses may also create additional problems. The hose may chaff or rub against other components, or pull loose as a result of engine motion and vibration. Use the correct type of replacement hose (PVC hose or vacuum hose capable of withstanding fuel vapors and vacuum without collapsing). Also, be sure the replacement hose is the same diameter and length as the original.
* Carburetor or throttle body base gasket vacuum leaks Try tightening down the carburetor or throttle body mounting bolts. If that doesn't stop the leak, replace the gasket under the carburetor or throttle body. If there is a heat insulator or adapter plate under the unit, it may also have to be replaced depending on its condition. While the carburetor or throttle body is off, use a straightedge to check the base for flatness (and the manifold, too). Warped surfaces can prevent a tight seal, so if you find any it calls for resurfacing or component replacement.
* Carburetor or throttle body throttle shaft vacuum leaks Wear here can only be repaired by resleeving the throttle shaft, which for all practical purposes means replacing the carburetor or throttle body with a new or remanufactured unit.
* Intake manifold gasket vacuum leaks Try retorquing the intake manifold bolts, working from the center out in the recommended tightening sequence. If that fails, the intake manifold will have to be removed and the intake gaskets replaced. Sometimes the mating surface of the intake manifold or the heads will not be flat (check both with a straightedge). If warped, the intake manifold and/or heads will have to be resurfaced on a milling machine. Another problem to watch out for here are heads that have been milled or resurfaced to raise compression. To maintain proper alignment between the manifold and heads, metal also needs to be machined off the bottom of the manifold where it mates with the block, otherwise it will sit to high and the ports and bolt holes won't align.
* EGR valve leaks If the valve isn't closing all the way due to carbon deposits on the stem or valve seat, cleaning may be all that is needed to cure the problem. Otherwise, the engine will need a new EGR valve.
* Leaky power brake booster Replace it. But first make sure it is the booster and not just the hose or check valve that is leaking.
Click to expand...

zrayr · Jan 27, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

Mike Christie said: ↑

Take a vacuum reading while the engine is running at an idle. Write down that reading, then rev the engine slightly and watch the needle on the vacuum gauge. The vacuum gauge will show in inches. I don't remember how many inches of vacuum you should have, but I would think somewhere in the 17 to 19 inch lbs range. The needle should drop when you rev it and then return to normal reading.
Click to expand...

from the Ford shop manual: The Hi-Po engine should have 15" of vacuum at idle. Do a google on engine vacuum, and you will find a lot of info on diagnosing engine problems via vacuum readings.

Z. Ray

Doug_GT350 · Jan 27, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

Very good informative post Mike!

OVERRIDE · Jan 27, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

I use propane to find vac leaks . Buy small cylinder at Ace then i put a hose on it and you can pinpoint the leak.

Doug_GT350 · Jan 28, 2009

Re: Fuel pump working or not?

OVERRIDE said: ↑

I use propane to find vac leaks . Buy small cylinder at Ace then i put a hose on it and you can pinpoint the leak.
Click to expand...

I never heard of that until I read Mikes post, I always used the carb cleaner. I guess you're never too old to learn!!!!

Mike Christie · Jan 28, 2009

Doug_GT350 said: ↑

I never heard of that until I read Mikes post, I always used the carb cleaner. I guess you're never too old to learn!!!!
Click to expand...

I had heard of using propane to find a vacuum leak, but never tried it as propane is heavy compared to air and will settle settle on the ground making it more difficult to smell and detect. As an old propane mechanic, I have seen too many times propane set off just through static electric charge, like for example, undoing a propane line in a motor home and just moving on the carpet can set off an explosion. I think I will stick to the carb. cleaner just because of that reason.

Doug_GT350 said: ↑

Very good informative post Mike!
Click to expand...

Thanks Doug_GT350. I gained a lot of information myself from the site, but I fell asleep about halfway through reading it.

GCRIV · May 18, 2009

Sticky fuel situation?

This problem is from an old post I haven't solved yet. When my '66 289 is running at idle, all is well. When I get it out on the road, as the rpm's go up, the fuel can't keep up, and it cuts out on me. When looking at the clear fuel pump, you can tell that the supply can't keep up with the demand. I've checked the tank, all the lines, the fuel pump, the only thing I haven't really checked is the carb. Could a sticky float or something cause this thing? If so, where can I find a rebuild kit for a Carter 4bbl?

If not, what do you think? Please elaborate...

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