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Current status of CSX2166?

Discussion in 'Shelby Cobra' started by bitzman, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    As I prepared to research a car to see if it was sufficiently significant in Cobra history to make a painting, I noticed that the status of the car is still muddied (yes, I don' thave the new Register, I don't even have the old one).
    I speak of the Ferrari GTO hood vent-car, CSX2166. Here's what I know about it so far.

    tried to follow the tangled tale of CSX2166 but got lost on the curves. Does anyone know if it's been proved that the Daytona coupe replica running this chassis number in Europe is really the prototype test car from 1964? I guess the confusion results from someone wrote down 2196 as the chassis number at some point and from that point on the two cars always get confused. Here's what I found out so far, like to hear anyone's "proof" of what happened to it after Sebring in' 64---------------------------------------------------

    The Leaf Sprung Big Block “GTO breathing vents” Cobra

    There was one small block Cobra that ran with a big block and Ferrari 250GTO style air intakes. It was CSX2166, raced at Sebring, March 21, 1964 with John Morton driving. The car came about when Ken Miles, as Shelby’s chief engineer, had a discussion with the Hurlock brothers who owned A.C. Cars Ltd., Shelby’s supplier, and decided to see if Ford’s 390 aluminum block would fit and how the leaf sprung car would perform in racing conditions. The car was cobbled together. Ironically the car hit a tree in practice with Miles at the wheel. What a tree was doing on a race course takes too much explaining. Suffice to say the car was near uncontrollable. Miles stayed up all night long pounding the car out so it would be race ready the next day.

    Though I have seen pictures of him in the forughly repaired car I think he must have turned it over early to Morton and gone off to tend his cracked or broken ribs (which he had taped up after the crash). Morton only lasted a few laps before the engine blew.

    According to the website http://www.sandcastlevi.com/racing/cobra-1.htm here are the Cobras that ran at Sebring in 1966

    1 GT D.MacDonald/B.Holbert 10 Cobra Daytona CSX2287 CS
    2 GT B.Bondurant/L.Spencer 12 Cobra Roadster ******* CS
    3 GT J.Schlesser/P.Hill 14 Cobra Roadster ******* CS
    5 GT S.Scott/H.Keck 80 Cobra Roadster CSX2127 Cust.
    6 GT D.Gurney/B.Johnson 11 Cobra Roadster CSX2259 CS
    7 GT T.Hitchcock/Tchkotoua 15 Cobra Roadster CSX2155 Cust.
    12 GT E.Lowther/Wintersteen 18 Cobra Roadster CSX2153 Cust.
    DNF J.Stevens/Noseda 16 Cobra Roadster CSX2137 Cust.
    DNF Reed/D.Gerber/Lang 19 Cobra Roadster CSX2138 Cust.
    DNF G.Shaw/DeWayne 24 Cobra Roadster CSX2129 Cust.
    DNF K.Miles/J.Morton 1 Cobra 427 CSX2166 CS

    I don't know why it is listed as a 427 on this list. At any rate, it must have been resurrected because, as improbable as it seems, it is possible that a historic car like CSX2166 was ignored for its contribution to Cobra history and later fitted out as a street car.The chassis number was last seen on a Swiss auto dealer’s website wearing a Daytona coupe body. The firm called Burgoi.Their e-mail info@burgol.ch. (it's not China, Switzerland is actually The Confederation of Helvetia)

    And to the guy who, every time I bring up something historical, always asks why I don't look it up in the Register, I don't take any one source as gospel truth.

    I think if this chassis number Cobra still exists, it would be worth more in its 1964 Sebring body style, complete with lumpy post-crash body and aluminum block 390 (must be rare on the ground...John Vermeersch might know. He's at Total Preformance , 44020 N. Groesbeck Hwy. , Mt. Clemens, MI 49043, 313/468-3673) Of course it still might be uncontrollable..but, hey, isn't that what authenticity is all about?
     
  2. A-Snake

    A-Snake Well-Known Member

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    CSX2196, not CSX2166. Same answer that you received on the Club Cobra Forum now and before.
     
  3. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    I did another computer search today and so far your opinion, that the fliptop of Rich Mason was once the GTO-nostril car at Sebring in '64, only has a slight edge.

    This website says CSX2196 raced at Nassau. It is the fliptop.It doesn’t say what the number was of the GTO-nosril car run at Sebring

    http://www.csxinfo.net/compcars/fliptop/fliptop.htm


    If you look at Yahoo website there’s these two listings supporting my contention

    Sandcastle V.I. - Guestbook, Volume 6
    ... International Race Record page, especially the data on the 1964 Sebring 12-hrs. ... Internet mentioning CSX2166 as Ken Miles' car in Sebring, I'd like to ...
    www.sandcastlevi.com
    Carroll Shelby's AC Cobras
    A mere eight hours after being unloaded, the first Cobra roared to life. ... CSX2166 - Ken Miles raced a prototype 427, leaf spring chassis, at Sebring. April 1964 ...
    www.classicponycars.com

    but on your side, a site called http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/Sebring-1964-03-21-photo.html
    Has a picture of the GTO nostril car and says its CSX 2196

    A website called http://wspr-racing.com/wspr/results/wscc/ms1964.html#2 is on your side
    too calling it CSX2196

    so my question is, so far we are almost evenly divided. Being that entries on the net are not under overall editorship of anyone, how can it ever be reconciled as to what the true number is? I still would rather the car of Rich Mason be rebodied as it was in '64 at Sebring but on the other hand the fliptop is even more famous. This is one of those cars that needs to be displayed with two bodies, and the bodies changed every few hours (there's a Ferrari I found that has had four different bodies...)

    Confused in Cleveland
     
  4. computerworks

    computerworks Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, that will continue to be the case if you use fan-sites as a primary source of research. :whistle:

    The Sandcastle Results has the typo that continues to propagate.

    The SAAC World Registry of Cobra and GT40s has the explanation.

    I refer you to pages 141 and 155.

    :cool:

    ...see above.
     
  5. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    The Register is the Holy Grail but...

    ..I prefer to also find individual stories. Personal stories of people involved with cars are sometimes more illuminating than the facts such as they are gathered by later historians or spready by car company pr flacks.

    Here's my favorite "personal car story." I was in the gullwing club and attended a meeting and there was a discussion about whether gullwings came in black. Almost everybody there agreed that it was "not a factory color." Then one old man stood and said when he ordered his gullwing , he landed his bomber on the runway at Unterturikheim, taxied up to the factory door, walked in, pointed to a gullwing and said "I want one of those and I want it in black."

    The factory officials nodded in agreement and said "Yessir, General LeMay."

    The kicker was that he had been in charge of allied bombing during WWII and, only a few years before, had personally ordered the bombing of that same factory.

    My point--in the car business sometimes a guy with influence can have a car built just about any way he wants, such as Gen. LeMay.This in spite of all the factory records and car club historians evidence to the contrary.
     
  6. okwian

    okwian Member

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    Re: The Register is the Holy Grail but...


    Great story.k

    BTW, the general in command of Ft Jackson awhile back got court martialed for having Maine lobsters flown in for his personal use. Times have changed. Sometimes for some people.
     

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