Pete makes an interesting comment regarding being tired of hearing about the Z06. I'm one of the guys who early assumed I would buy the first new GT500 to be available at MSRP, and lately have been so turned off--disgusted--by the dealers that at this point I am starting to look at alternatives, because I simply won't play the dealer markup game. In fact, it makes me want to continue staying away from Ford dealers, just as I have for all these decades since I bought my GT500 from a dealer when it was new. Comes the Z06. It's a real nice collection of modern technology with its magnesium roof structure, carbon fiber & balsa core floor, incredible power, fantastic great looks, and reasonable price for the performance. I must admit, I'm quite taken by it. I can afford either car, and I can get the Z06 for MSRP, probably even a little bit less since I've bought several Chevrolets from our local dealer. Meanwhile, the Ford dealer is staffed by cretins who promise to call but don't, act like idiots (one of them wrecked a brand new Mustang GT before it was delivered to its buyer--AND HE'S STILL WORKING FOR THE DEALER!), want a ridiculous premium over MSRP when/if they get a GT500, and besides they all stink from smoking in their office. With so many interesting alternatives in the marketplace, the GT500 is going to have to be sold at MSRP by a dealer who's nice about it, or not only will I continue avoiding Ford shops but also I think it's an indicator that the company itself will keep sliding into irrelevance in the market. By "continue" I mean...look: Their stock price is $8 now versus $35 in the late '90's, about an 75% decline. Toyota went down in this same time frame too, from $100 to about $40, a 60% decline. The difference is that TM stock is now back to $100 while F languishes in the doldroms with nary a bounce off the bottom, assuming it's even reached that point yet. Toyota's been focusing on engineering & quality for decades, while Ford's been trying to do...what? I don't know. They don't really have much of a reputation for anything...not stying, not quality, certainly not financial excellence and definitely not the customer experience. At least GM & D-C have great styling houses. Is anyone actually moved by the looks of the new GT500 or the Mustang? It's OK. No breakout design at all. Typical of literally everything from Ford. What will happen to Ford if they can't fix themselves? I wonder if BMW or VW would like to expand their North American ownership presence. Heck, at the rate that F is dropping in market cap, probably Fiat or a resuscitated British Leland could pick it up. Full disclosure: We have an XJ8, and I will sometime buy one of the new aluminum bodied XJR's, though probably not from a dealer. So I don't completely shun newer Fords, if you consider a Jag to be one. Besides, Jags only require 1 or 2 Sundays per month of work these days to keep them going. Roger WA State--The Wet Coast
GT500 availability rant: A lot of the problem lies in the way the dealers are allocated “hot” product. I ordered a ’03 MACH 1 when they were announced. The dealer in Phoenix wrote the order at $500 over invoice. I was to be the 4th car for them, same pricing as the other 3 buyers. I was told in February that they probably wouldn’t get the car allocated, so I started shopping around. I ended up buying from a dealer in another part of the state for MSRP. I was happy, and most dealers were adding markup by then. By summer, the car cooled off, FORD had over produced and started offering rebates. At the end of the year they were selling at invoice with a $3500 rebate in my area. My point is, if I (and anyone who wants one) orders a GT500, build it and ship it to the dealer. I have no problem paying MSRP. I won’t pay a premium over sticker though. FORD corporate will make a predetermined profit per unit at MSRP, so it makes better sense to build as many as there are customers. I see no advantage for FORD when the dealers hold cars waiting for a premium. There is dealer profit built into the price and probably backend money as well. If dealers are having a tough time, they ought to concentrate on selling their entire line, not squeezing markup out of a few cars because they are currently hot. If they don’t think there is enough profit in the car, ask FORD to include an extra $5K into the factory sticker price for them to keep. Not likely to happen. Like it or not, MSRP is a benchmark value of the car set by FORD. Rant over, I feel better now. Dave 6S1497
Message The Ford family controls the part of the stock that controls the company. The company cannot be taken over from them by buying regular stock in the company. Jim Seisser -----Original Message----- From: Roger Sent: Feb 14, 2006 1:34 PM To: shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com Subject: GT500 vs Z06, & FOMOCO observations Pete makes an interesting comment regarding being tired of hearing about the Z06. I'm one of the guys who early assumed I would buy the first new GT500 to be available at MSRP, and lately have been so turned off--disgusted--by the dealers that at this point I am starting to look at alternatives, because I simply won't play the dealer markup game. In fact, it makes me want to continue staying away from Ford dealers, just as I have for all these decades since I bought my GT500 from a dealer when it was new. Comes the Z06. It's a real nice collection of modern technology with its magnesium roof structure, carbon fiber & balsa core floor, incredible power, fantastic great looks, and reasonable price for the performance. I must admit, I'm quite taken by it. I can afford either car, and I can get the Z06 for MSRP, probably even a little bit less since I've bought several Chevrolets from our local dealer. Meanwhile, the Ford dealer is staffed by cretins who promise to call but don't, act like idiots (one of them wrecked a brand new Mustang GT before it was delivered to its buyer--AND HE'S STILL WORKING FOR THE DEALER!), want a ridiculous premium over MSRP when/if they get a GT500, and besides they all stink from smoking in their office. With so many interesting alternatives in the marketplace, the GT500 is going to have to be sold at MSRP by a dealer who's nice about it, or not only will I continue avoiding Ford shops but also I think it's an indicator that the company itself will keep sliding into irrelevance in the market. By "continue" I mean...look: Their stock price is $8 now versus $35 in the late '90's, about an 75% decline. Toyota went down in this same time frame too, from $100 to about $40, a 60% decline. The difference is that TM stock is now back to $100 while F languishes in the doldroms with nary a bounce off the bottom, assuming it's even reached that point yet. Toyota's been focusing on engineering & quality for decades, while Ford's been trying to do...what? I don't know. They don't really have much of a reputation for anything...not stying, not quality, certainly not financial excellence and definitely not the customer experience. At least GM & D-C have great styling houses. Is anyone actually moved by the looks of the new GT500 or the Mustang? It's OK. No breakout design at all. Typical of literally everything from Ford. What will happen to Ford if they can't fix themselves? I wonder if BMW or VW would like to expand their North American ownership presence. Heck, at the rate that F is dropping in market cap, probably Fiat or a resuscitated British Leland could pick it up. Full disclosure: We have an XJ8, and I will sometime buy one of the new aluminum bodied XJR's, though probably not from a dealer. So I don't completely shun newer Fords, if you consider a Jag to be one. Besides, Jags only require 1 or 2 Sundays per month of work these days to keep them going. Roger WA State--The Wet Coast ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
like my brother said so well "I will not pay more for something than the manufacturer said was worth" bob
Just about all of the very most highly anticipated "enthusiast" type cars have historically been marked up by the dealers of all their respective manufacturers upon initial introduction. I had to argue with the sales manager of the dealership I ordered my 2005 Mustang GT from in early December 2004 because I wanted to buy it at Ford employee D-Plan pricing. They insited they could sell it for over MSRP - I said I could wait a few months and buy it from a different dealer - he saw it my way. I just spoke with our Ford Field Quality Engineer at work today here in Las Vegas about the new GT500 and he informed me that this new Shelby won't be nearly as limited production as some of you are hoping - sorry to break some of your investment dreams out there. He told me the initial sales projection is 7,700 units, and are planning for a run of up to 10,000! If you are interested - wait three or four months after they first start going on sale. Bernie Smith 69 GT500 #0018 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave" <deurich (AT) charter (DOT) net> To: <rogerhol (AT) willapabay (DOT) org> Cc: <shelbymustang (AT) carmemories (DOT) com> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:14 PM Subject: Re: GT500 vs Z06, & FOMOCO observations > GT500 availability rant: > A lot of the problem lies in the way the dealers are allocated “hot” > product. I ordered a ’03 MACH 1 when they were announced. The dealer in > Phoenix wrote the order at $500 over invoice. I was to be the 4th car for > them, same pricing as the other 3 buyers. I was told in February that they > probably wouldn’t get the car allocated, so I started shopping around. I > ended up buying from a dealer in another part of the state for MSRP. I was > happy, and most dealers were adding markup by then. By summer, the car > cooled off, FORD had over produced and started offering rebates. At the > end of the year they were selling at invoice with a $3500 rebate in my > area. > My point is, if I (and anyone who wants one) orders a GT500, build it and > ship it to the dealer. I have no problem paying MSRP. I won’t pay a > premium over sticker though. FORD corporate will make a predetermined > profit per unit at MSRP, so it makes better sense to build as many as > there are customers. I see no advantage for FORD when the dealers hold > cars waiting for a premium. There is dealer profit built into the price > and probably backend money as well. If dealers are having a tough time, > they ought to concentrate on selling their entire line, not squeezing > markup out of a few cars because they are currently hot. If they don’t > think there is enough profit in the car, ask FORD to include an extra $5K > into the factory sticker price for them to keep. Not likely to happen. > Like it or not, MSRP is a benchmark value of the car set by FORD. > Rant over, I feel better now. > > Dave > 6S1497 > >
In a message dated 2/15/2006 1:18:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, bigb427 (AT) cox (DOT) net writes: Just about all of the very most highly anticipated "enthusiast" type cars have historically been marked up by the dealers of all their respective manufacturers upon initial introduction. I had to argue with the sales manager of the dealership I ordered my 2005 Mustang GT from in early December 2004 because I wanted to buy it at Ford employee D-Plan pricing. They insited they could sell it for over MSRP - I said I could wait a few months and buy it from a different dealer - he saw it my way. I just spoke with our Ford Field Quality Engineer at work today here in Las Vegas about the new GT500 and he informed me that this new Shelby won't be nearly as limited production as some of you are hoping - sorry to break some of your investment dreams out there. He told me the initial sales projection is 7,700 units, and are planning for a run of up to 10,000! If you are interested - wait three or four months after they first start going on sale. Bernie Smith 69 GT500 #0018 Bernie, That confirms what I heard at the auto show from some of the UAW people they had on the Ford stand. Once you get over a couple of thousand cars (the production run for the 1967 GT500's, actually), rarity is usually more a matter of supply and demand than actual scarcity, especially for a car that is not really a mass market item. For example, my 1985 SVO is one of about 10,000 made over three years. Great car, but not exactly high value, even though it cost considerably more than the V8 Mustang GT's of the day. In fact, it's worth much less than my 1955 T-Bird, which was definitely a mass market car and, although nice, is not in anywhere near the condition of my SVO. However, people just love the two-seat Birds, impractical though they may be, and I doubt that that many people, even within the hobby, know what an SVO is! Many of the dealers that try to stick it to the first few buyers are going to suffer the same opportunity cost as the ones that have held onto the Ford GT's in hopes of getting a huge premium. That ship has sailed, and I believe that the SS GT500 will have an even earlier departure. I still want one, but it will be purchased at MSRP or less! Mike Heroy CSX4045 67 GT500 #841 68 GT500 #389
On Feb 14, 2006, at 10:17 PM, bigb427 {Bernard Smith} wrote: > Just about all of the very most highly anticipated "enthusiast" type > cars have historically been marked up by the dealers of all their > respective manufacturers upon initial introduction. I had to argue > with the sales manager of the dealership I ordered my 2005 Mustang GT > from in early December 2004 because I wanted to buy it at Ford > employee D-Plan pricing. They insited they could sell it for over MSRP > - I said I could wait a few months and buy it from a different dealer > - he saw it my way. > I just spoke with our Ford Field Quality Engineer at work today here > in Las Vegas about the new GT500 and he informed me that this new > Shelby won't be nearly as limited production as some of you are hoping > - sorry to break some of your investment dreams out there. He told me > the initial sales projection is 7,700 units, and are planning for a > run of up to 10,000! If you are interested - wait three or four > months after they first start going on sale. Most of us can put our names on the MSRP list, but the reality is this. Perhaps Ford will build 10-12k this year, I hope so. I dont think you guys realize how big the market is going to be for this car. You have got all the current Shelby owners, the guys who have been priced out of the classic Shelby market , the SVT guys, and then throw in all the other markets on top of these. I will be patient as well but I am praying for an extended build. Phil Sanchez #2005 67 GT350 1966 GT350 clone 1986 Mustang SVO 1986 Mustang GT 1986 Ex CHP Mustang 2005 GT500?
In a message dated 2/15/2006 8:48:52 AM Pacific Standard Time, phil (AT) pacificorca (DOT) com writes: > >the initial sales projection is 7,700 units, and are planning for a > >run of up to 10,000! And if Ford follows their "typical" approach to SVT vehicles, they'll schedule the "build" in one (or maybe two) "big chunks" (for "effeciency")...which has almost always meant that "all" the vehicles hit the dealership floors in a relatively short period of time. That *glut* in turn results in a (temporary) "overstock" situation, which leads to "discount pricing" to minimize the accumulating flooring costs.... We'll see, eh?
I know I am late in responding to this string. There is so much hype in the air regarding the 2007 Shelby that people think they will have to pay a huge prmium to buy one. I remember back in 1989 When the Corvette first came out with the 1990 ZR-1, the cars soared upward of $100,000 at the begining of the release. Then the premuim dropped to $5,000 over sticker ($60,000 sticker) and if you really looked around, you could have bought one for sticker. I had a deposit for one at sticker with a classic corvette dealer who had an agreement with a dealership that he gets one of every corvette type issued. The classic corvette dealer was screwed and I did not get the car (yes, I did get my money back). A year later the 1991 cars were selling under sticker. Once the "frenzy" is over from the people who have to be the first on the block with the new car, things will calm down on the 2007 Shelby. The dealers are being offered money and they are going to take it. If XYZ dealership has ten customers willing to pay a premium with only two cars available then they will sell the cars. People were so eager to be on a list that the dealers can ask rediculous premiums. This has become common with Corvettes and Mustangs, even a car like the PT cruiser sold above sticker when it first came out. Most of the people on this list are bright individuals. Forget the emotion of what is going on and look at the situation. If all of these dealers have long lists, then they have more demand than product. The demand is actually less than what many dealers believe, because people have themselves on multiple lists to ensure they have an opportunity to get a Shelby. Let the cars get to the dealers and the cars will settle down in price. Ford is not thriving because a lack of new product lines, labor agreements, and other economic factors. Lee 66 # 869 69 # 2055
