Pie ChartsHey there guys I would like your input especially if you have experience on 69 351 W motors. My brother-in-law has a 69 Mach1 and I have been helping him do a concourse restoration on this car. His car runs hot . He took the original 351w motor to the machine shop I use and had them rebuild it and reassemble it. The motor was a 2V but he replaced the intake with a C9 4V cast unit. The motor was bored 30 over , he reused the original heads and used a slightly above stock cam. The motor is in stock trim with the original Autolite carb, stock manifolds etc. It fired right up and seems to run very well. We checked to make sure the coolant is circulating and that the thermostat is opening(plus replaced it with a 160). He used a new larger than stock aftermarket radiator. The waterpump is a new Motorcraft unit. The gauge in the car goes to halfway in about 10 minutes and starts to creep up to 3/4 and if you let it idle it will peg the gauge. I used a temp scanner and the temp at the waterpump is 205 and at the intake is 190F. It appears that the gauge is correct. Timing is set at 6 degrees.It hasn't bubbled over yet.What do you guys think? Olaf
Pie Charts A common mistake on winsors is to put the head gaskets on in the wrong direction so that the front water passages are not fully open. I don't think this is your problem, but I mention it just so that you consider this issue.The .030 bore will mean that the cylinder walls are thinner and therefore more heat from the cylinders will get into the cooling fluid. The change in cam and timing could contribute to the problem too. The issue kind of sounds to me as not enough heat exchange at the radiator. At least that's where I'd start. Is the fan blade facing the right direction? It's a dumb question but one that has to be asked. I assume all the air has been bleed out of the cooling system. Is the fan and radiator shrouded correctly? A 160 degree thermostat won't make the engine run cooler overall, it just opens sooner that's all. Is the vehicle running a surge/overflow tank? How do you know the new radiator cools any better that the old one? Can the old one be swapped back in place and see if there is a difference? Is the radiator cap holding pressure? Running a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water? Automatic or manual trans? If auto trans how is the trans being cooled. You can expect this engine to reject more heat into the cooling system, but as you say it isn't phyically overheating and puking. Perhaps the cooling system is working correctly but overall it just runs hotter and the gage reflects that? Try replacing the temperture sender yet? You say the motor was a 2V but the engine now has a 4V intake and you are using the original Autolite Carb. Well part of that statement doesn't seem to make sense. But then '69 Mach Is came standard with 351W 4V engines. So are you trying to say that the current block in the car came out of a different 2V vehicle? I don't think that should make any difference for the over-heating issue but you should clarify what's changing block-wise. Jim Seisser -----Original Message----- From: Olaf Herrick Sent: Mar 12, 2006 10:27 AM To: shelby list Subject: Need your advice. BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 30px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #996600; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', Helvetica } Hey there guys I would like your input especially if you have experience on 69 351 W motors. My brother-in-law has a 69 Mach1 and I have been helping him do a concourse restoration on this car. His car runs hot . He took the original 351w motor to the machine shop I use and had them rebuild it and reassemble it. The motor was a 2V but he replaced the intake with a C9 4V cast unit. The motor was bored 30 over , he reused the original heads and used a slightly above stock cam. The motor is in stock trim with the original Autolite carb, stock manifolds etc. It fired right up and seems to run very well. We checked to make sure the coolant is circulating and that the thermostat is opening(plus replaced it with a 160). He used a new larger than stock aftermarket radiator. The waterpump is a new Motorcraft unit. The gauge in the car goes to halfway in about 10 minutes and starts to creep up to 3/4 and if you let it idle it will peg the gauge. I used a temp scanner and the temp at the waterpump is 205 and at the intake is 190F. It appears that the gauge is correct. Timing is set at 6 degrees.It hasn't bubbled over yet.What do you guys think? Olaf ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Pie ChartsOlaf- Jim has just about covered all the bases except considering the possibility that the distributor isn't operating properly (advance/retard) or that the block wasn't boiled out sufficiently and there's an obstruction. If everything checks out, try REDLINE WaterWetter. It can reduce coolant temp by 10-15 degrees. Every little bit will help. Good Luck! Regards, Stan ----- Original Message ----- From: ecj To: shelby list Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 7:35 PM Subject: Re: Need your advice. A common mistake on winsors is to put the head gaskets on in the wrong direction so that the front water passages are not fully open. I don't think this is your problem, but I mention it just so that you consider this issue.The .030 bore will mean that the cylinder walls are thinner and therefore more heat from the cylinders will get into the cooling fluid. The change in cam and timing could contribute to the problem too. The issue kind of sounds to me as not enough heat exchange at the radiator. At least that's where I'd start. Is the fan blade facing the right direction? It's a dumb question but one that has to be asked. I assume all the air has been bleed out of the cooling system. Is the fan and radiator shrouded correctly? A 160 degree thermostat won't make the engine run cooler overall, it just opens sooner that's all. Is the vehicle running a surge/overflow tank? How do you know the new radiator cools any better that the old one? Can the old one be swapped back in place and see if there is a difference? Is the radiator cap holding pressure? Running a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and water? Automatic or manual trans? If auto trans how is the trans being cooled. You can expect this engine to reject more heat into the cooling system, but as you say it isn't phyically overheating and puking. Perhaps the cooling system is working correctly but overall it just runs hotter and the gage reflects that? Try replacing the temperture sender yet? You say the motor was a 2V but the engine now has a 4V intake and you are using the original Autolite Carb. Well part of that statement doesn't seem to make sense. But then '69 Mach Is came standard with 351W 4V engines. So are you trying to say that the current block in the car came out of a different 2V vehicle? I don't think that should make any difference for the over-heating issue but you should clarify what's changing block-wise. Jim Seisser -----Original Message----- From: Olaf Herrick Sent: Mar 12, 2006 10:27 AM To: shelby list Subject: Need your advice. Hey there guys I would like your input especially if you have experience on 69 351 W motors. My brother-in-law has a 69 Mach1 and I have been helping him do a concourse restoration on this car. His car runs hot . He took the original 351w motor to the machine shop I use and had them rebuild it and reassemble it. The motor was a 2V but he replaced the intake with a C9 4V cast unit. The motor was bored 30 over , he reused the original heads and used a slightly above stock cam. The motor is in stock trim with the original Autolite carb, stock manifolds etc. It fired right up and seems to run very well. We checked to make sure the coolant is circulating and that the thermostat is opening(plus replaced it with a 160). He used a new larger than stock aftermarket radiator. The waterpump is a new Motorcraft unit. The gauge in the car goes to halfway in about 10 minutes and starts to creep up to 3/4 and if you let it idle it will peg the gauge. I used a temp scanner and the temp at the waterpump is 205 and at the intake is 190F. It appears that the gauge is correct. Timing is set at 6 degrees.It hasn't bubbled over yet.What do you guys think? Olaf ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com
Pie ChartsOlaf, A couple of things come to mind: 1. Define "runs hot". Typical definitions would be (1) boils over (2) hard starts; difficulting restarting after shut-down (3) rapid oil break-down You didn't mention any of those things, so I'm assuming you're going on the temperature gauge reading 2. Typical reasons small block Ford (Windsor or 90-degree Vee) engines run hot: (1) Bad water pump / belts / not enough coolant (2) Leaking radiator / hoses / not enough coolant (3) Stuck thermostat (4) Not enough oil / seized oil pump (5) Wrong coolant mixture: either 100% coolant or 100% water (6) Bad temperature gauge / sending unit / wire connecting (7) Blown head gasket (evaporating all the coolant) or installed backwards blocking water passages (8) Bad radiator cap / wrong pressure (9) Incorrect ignition timing (10) More than 0.040" over bore (11) Burnt exhaust valves From your email, it sounds like 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10, and 11 are addressed. Just to be sure, test those 8 things. Then look at 4 (oil level /oil pump), 6 (try a different gauge / sending unit; maybe a calibration problem), and/or 9 (use a timing light) 3. Rather than take static temperature readings, why not install an under the hood temperature gauge? And if you run the wire remotely from under the hood to inside the car, you can determine if this just happens when idling, or when driving. 4. Is this a manual or automatic transmission? If auto are the trans cooling lines unobstructed? I went through a nightmare with my 70 Mach I, but that car had a 351C-4V. Hard starts, impossible to time, never boiled over, but just ran "scary hot" on the gauge. I replaced sending unit, temperature gauge, had it timed (with new plugs, wires, distributor cap, coil, selenoid, voltage regulator and battery - including cables), flushed and refilled the coolant, oil, and transmission fluid, then recorred the radiator, added a new fan shroud, hoses and belts. It improved a little bit, but still looked hot. Took it on a 1,400 mile trip to Charlotte; observed a strange fact. It over-heated from 35 - 65mph, but from idle - 35 and over 70mph, it was normal temperature. Eventually, had it rebuilt for another reason. Found the answer during the rebuild: a small washer called "a flow restrictor" was removed from the engine. Thus, the water didn't spend enough time in the radiator. rebuilt the distributor, added pertronix under the cap, used a brand new harmonic balancer where you could see the timing pointer, and ran a new set of cooling lines to the transmission. This solved all problems, and it could run all day in 95-degree weather while stuck in beach traffic, without overheating. Hope this helps! John Dettori 2001 SVT Cobra Smithtown, NY 11787 1986 Mustang SVO jdettori (AT) optonline (DOT) net 1967 Shelby GT350 1967 Mustang GT Vert
In a message dated 3/12/06 23:30:06, jdettori (AT) optonline (DOT) net writes: << Eventually, had it rebuilt for another reason. Found the answer during the rebuild: a small washer called "a flow restrictor" was removed from the engine. >> >>>Actually, the 351C uses a special, unique thermostat with a 'hat' that blocks a bypass orifice when open. Some people will plus the orifice which then allows you to run a standard Windsor thermostat. Sounds like somebody unplugged that orifice and you didn't know it. Your overheating systems could have been straightened out easily by just installing a proper 351C thermostat. This doesn't help anybody with Windsor problems though, as they don't use this system. Mike
