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new CarTech book on Shelby, question about the 1970 models

Discussion in '1965-1970 Shelby Mustang GT350 & GT500' started by bitzman, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    First of all I have to praise the photography and general scholarship of the new book The Definitive SHELBY MUSTANG Guide 1965-'70 authored by Greg Kolasa and published by CarTech. It really raises the bar re the information level for Shelby collectors and those wanting to build a tribute of their own. The only all new info to me was the part about where he says A.O.Smith, builders of Shelbys from '68-70, got in a tussle with Ford over finishing the cars after Shelby left and months went by when nothing was happening. I would have thought that, if everything went smoothly in '68, even if Shelby himself left the helm in '69, why would the production of Shelby Mustangs all fall apart in '70? The author of the book doesn't put any company memos or correspondence in there to back up his story but to be fair there was no room for that in this kind of book--the title alone lets you know this is a book about available options, trim levels, paint availability, types of wheels, running changes and the like while my question is more about internal politics. Still Kolasa has opened the door and now has piqued my curiosity as I don't recall reading anything about a FoMoCo vs. A.O. Smith battle in any books or articles previously (other than the serial number update from '69 to '70 models). I shouldn't be surprised== if you look at automotive history, there has been several instances of a "spokesman" whose name is on a car leaving the project and the subseuqent drop in desirability for the car. one example being the front-engined DeTomaso Mangusta where DeTomaso walked out and the builder of the car had to take DeTomaso's name after the car, which failed soon after.
     
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  2. mrmustang

    mrmustang Well-Known Member

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    Since I know Greg personally, I'll tell you, if he put it in writing, then there are factory documents, and interviews with ex AO Smith and Shelby employees to back it up. Greg is not the type of person to hype anything, not ever in the 30+ years I've known him. Perhaps that is one of the reasons he was working on this publication for 10+ years. Accuracy and integrity take time and are not garnered through third hand innuendo, unlike some other authors I know who have written on the same subject. :rolleyes:

    Bill S.




     
  3. Coralsnake

    Coralsnake Well-Known Member

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    I have all the documentation, Greg references in his book. The bad business relationship between the three entities has been widely known for a long time. I know the 1971 Shelby has been discussed here before. The reasons it was not built are the same. Smith was not getting paid in a timely manner. Quality issues were always a point of contention. The three entities were in constant fight about who was to blame for the ongoing problems. It was a three way business relationship that was doomed from the start. Shelby did not end the relationship (to go to Africa). AO Smith ended the relationship. That's why the 1970s were sent to Kar Kraft. Smith told Ford they were no longer interested in continuing the relationship.

    There is no "open door". You just need to read source material instead of reading all the copied crap found in print car magazines. I am going to tell you a little secret. There aren't a lot of people doing research and printing new material. There are a lot of "writers" recycling boiler plate stories from the 1980s. All you have to do is read a Mustang magazine....a dozen papragraphs in a car feature and usually less than one will be about the history of the car, the owner or the dealership the car came from....but you will find a the same eleven paragraphs about Cobra Jets, the Winternationals, Aprils fool's day, and how Tasca came up with the idea.
     
  4. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for shining a light in a dark corner

    I know that the new book is primarily aimed at those who want to know precisely what equipment was on the '65-'70 models and not intended to be a business history per se. I don't have the book in front of me but on the first read I got the impression it was Shelby who wanted out (I will check that in the next couple days to see if I remember reading that) and not A.O. Smith that wanted him out. Still, that being said, Colin Comer in one of his books on Shelby reproduces at least one letter from a Shelby entity (not called Shelby American, some other Shelby business name) --a great letter (entertainment wise) that tells the poor guy in effect too bad you didn't understand "427" was just a nomenclature when he discovered his Cobra came with a 428. That letter reveals a lot about where they were coming from. So I think if there is a letter from A.O. Smith saying they want out of the arrangement , it would have not been superfluous to reproduce in the book to back up the contention that it was A.O. Smith firing Shelby, not Shelby bailing out on his own. I think Shelby was still burned about the whole Trans-Am program, how he felt Ford didn't give him the best support in comparison with other teams. But most likely this is all far afield from the focus of the new book-- what equipment came on the cars, which is what concours judges are concerned about and tally up on their judging forms. To some, company politics are not important but, looking back, no matter what car company it is, I find them fascinating because it's the personalities involved that made a car a success or failure. In a way it's reminescent of when Ford bought DeTomaso, made the Panteras for America only to have DeTomaso walk out and go his own way, so that Ford was stuck with finishing out the Pantera run. DeTomaso had the last laugh though, making Panteras for decades after Ford abandoned the car. He had the resources to make the cars on his own (i.e. a rich wife)
     
  5. Coralsnake

    Coralsnake Well-Known Member

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    The Shelby program was planning a 1971 model.

    AO Smith did not wish continue after 1969. Those are both facts. I am sure there were many reasons for the demise of the relationship, not just the ones mentioned above. You can add anything you like, but those will not change.

    If you are implying that some people are holding things back, I will agree with you. Information is power. If you had a rare part, you probably wouldn't give it away. The same goes with rare documents. They do exist. I would gladly share my copies with anyone that has something I find equally valuable.

    Regarding your comments about concours judges, it is way off the mark. The book doesnt even get close to the type of details judges look at. The book touches only the most general features for each model year.
     
  6. bitzman

    bitzman Well-Known Member

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    As a guide to concours judges, I was wondering about that.

    At least it shows how each car looked with over 500 pages in a fairly slim book. But I wondered about that, for instance, when there was a running change (change to another part during a single model year) then you probably need a part number reference on that page, to say something like "after SN such-and-such they installed this new part." And to put that in every time there was a running change would sure slow up the narrative. So I guess those judges should bring their own ref. notes since most of the time at fancier concours they know way ahead of time what class they will be judging and the people who go to a concours hope that the judges are learned experts in their field. But as several decades have gone by, it's hard for even a regional club member "expert" to tell on a given car that was say in rough shape when bought, if all the parts existed on it contemporaneously. For that to happen it would have to be a one-owner no accident car, and that's rare but not impossible to find. I was only a concours judge once, in the MG class, pressed into service at the last minute and disliked the pressure of the owners taking issue with each note I made on my page (like were the radiators on a TC really polished brass--I doubt it). And of course the monkey wrench is "executive cars" --those rare cars made for executives that had that little difference here and there, like when I knew Bill Mitchell at GM , he would have the trim on his Cadillacs gold-plated! True, not in the catalog yet it was done because he was The Boss
     
  7. mrmustang

    mrmustang Well-Known Member

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    Re: As a guide to concours judges, I was wondering about that.

    WW,

    Do you have any real, first hand knowledge about the subject, or only what you have "overheard" or "read elsewhere"? Honestly, it's almost if you are front for J.H. these days. If so, how much is he or his publisher paying you for the information in which you gather on these web forums in the name of "subject research"?


    Bill S.


     
  8. Coralsnake

    Coralsnake Well-Known Member

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    I have been judging since the early 1990s and never used notes, nor have I ever seen any concours judges use notes.
     

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